Viren cheating?

Anyone old enough to remember watching 72 and 76, may remember the TV commentators actually discussing Viren's blood doping as if this was common knowledge.

It wasn't talked about as if it was rumors.

Any Which Way But Loose wrote:

Anyone old enough to remember watching 72 and 76, may remember the TV commentators actually discussing Viren's blood doping as if this was common knowledge.

It wasn't talked about as if it was rumors.

Thanks, I'm not quite old enough to remember.

Do you remember whether any judgement came with this commentary? We're commentators impressed by Viren's resourcefulness or was it percieved as an unfair advantage?

Hard to like a book that was so riddled with careless errors, as if they did not bother to fact check.

uews wrote:

Shorter in his new GREAT book thought he was too..or suggested it...

The first book Ive read in one sitting since I was a kid.

In my opinion, it is only a historical detail whether X, Y or Z used blood doping some half century ago. Perhaps an interesting detail, but nevertheless nothing more. This idea in mind, it still isn't that straightforward to conclude that blood doping was totally not against the rules nor not considered a form of cheating.Interesting that you bring up the name of WR steeplechaser Jouko Kuha, as he has not admitted blood doping. The first "real" confesser that you mention, Mikko Ala-Leppilampi, was practically broke when he confessed blood doping in 1981 to a gossip tabloid with a questionable reputation (he received a payment). Ala-Leppilampi himself also tells that he had told to Finnish sports officials that he might be interested in opening his mouth about "certain matters", a gesture that many Finnish commentators understood as an attempt to extort money.Two other Finnish sportspeople who admitted blood doping in 1980s (Kaarlo Maaninka, skier Aki Karvonen), were actually caught almost literally red-handed when they were either seen taking transfusions or when medical documents were leaked to the press. Well, they chose to confess as a "second-worst" option. As a few chose to tell their use of blood doping anonymously to researchers, one can only conclude that there are zero Finnish athletes who confessed really voluntarily, so there apparently was a certain stigma attached to the method.It should be also mentioned that before blood doping was banned, it was also debatable whether it actually was already banned according to the rules. While in retrospect it is apparent that IOC didn't force sanctions on athletes who were known to have used the method, some researchers pointed out that technically blood doping could be banned and we can find - for instance - the following paragraph from a 1981 blood doping study conducted by famous researcher Dr. Melvin Williams, who did three studies on the matter between 1972 and 1979:

[T]he use of this technique by elite runners would be illegal under the current Olympic Committee doping rules; for doping is defined, in part as the use of physiological substances in abnormal amounts and with abnormal methods with the exclusive aim of improving competitive performance.

While not totally untrue, it would be also too straightforward to conclude that the benefits of blood doping were known all over the world when the first news about Swedish experiments were published in 1971. In the academic world there was a lot of skepticism regarding the 1972 study. There was no single- nor doubleblind protocol, no control group and even the improvement in performance isn't that impressive when you compare the post-infusion values to the pre-withdrawal values, not to pre-infusion values (Vo2MAX of the group increased only by 4.8 %, not 9 %). Except one German study (Rost, 1975), every blood doping study until 1978 failed to replicate the Swedish findings when they utilized a more careful protocol. Aforementioned Melvyn H. Williams actually conducted two inquiries (published 1973, 1978) on the matter of which both failed to show any significant improvement in performance.

Interestingly one can even sense this skepticism in memoranda and comments made by people involved in sports medicine in Finland, as Finns had done their own blood doping study already in 1971 that didn't show any meaningful improvement in performance.

Very interesting post. I was sure I read somewhere that Kuha had admitted to blood doping prior to his WR and then blamed subsequent physical problems on the doping but I'll never find whatever it was I read again so I'll take your word.

I do recall reading that blood doping, when it was first discovered, was not illegal because it did not involve giving any sort of foreign substance to an athlete. Certainly there was no language in the rules at the time that outlawed it so it. If the rules don't forbid something I don't see how doing it can be called cheating. A good example is pitchers who threw spitballs in baseball. It wasn't illegal until the 1920s but is now so a modern pitcher who throws one is cheating and one who threw one a century ago wasn't. There have been many reports that Kuts was getting PEDs but I wouldn't consider him a cheater because they weren't illegal then.

Hey Clerk! (Welcome back from your vacation.)

Here is some stuff that is suggestive. There is of course no objective proof of Lasse Viren doing autologous blood transfusions.

Viren did deny it while he was still competing. There were no mind games.

The Finns exploded right around 1972. Why would it just be Lydiard training? Everyone knew about Lydiard training by then. It is more likely that they were probably the first to do large scale autologous blood transfusions…before the rest of the world caught up…and then the advantage was gone.

In 1972, Pekka Vasala wins the Olympic 1500m over Kip Keino? Viren wins the 5k and 10k (in world record time after falling down). Olavi Suomelainen wins the Boston marathon.

In 1974, Pekka Paivarinta wins the World Cross Country.

In 1976, Viren wins the 5k and 10k again. Cierpinski from East Germany wins the marathon.

In 1980, Kaarlo Maaninka wins the silver in the 10k and bronze in the 5k. He has admitted he did blood transfusions. Italy with Dr. Conconi starts blood transfusions in multiple Italian sports. Cierpinski wins again.

In 1984, Alberto Cova of Italy wins 10k Olympic gold (Renato Canova has admitted on this board that Cova did transfusions). Marti Vainio of Finland wins the silver but tests positive for the anabolic steroid metenolone, which was possibly in his old stored blood which was transfused before the race. He probably forgot he was on metenolone when the blood was withdrawn for storage. Whoops.

One third of the 1984 US Olympic Cycling team, which won 9 medals, were doing blood transfusions.

In 1985, autologous blood transfusions were banned by the IOC…but there was no test for detection.

The runners from Finland stopped winning lots of Olympic medals after the rest of the world caught up. The advantage was gone.

The EPO era then started around 1987 in cycling and around 1988 to 1989 in running.[/quote]

I have to admit this summary seems pretty convincing. It might be just a golden generation of runners who push each other – and who have finally learned to train well (before Lydiard's visit to Finland our coaching culture was a total mess).

Or it might be that they were full of dope or overly full of their own blood. As stated many times, most likely we will never know for sure.

To summarize my arguments supporting clean Viren:

1) He has always denied it. And there's

2) That guy was a genetic bullseye: in addition to having naturally high red blood cell levels, which arguably were high enough to make blood doping useless, there was also a study about his hormone levels, which revealed that Viren's testosterone and luteinizing hormone levels behaved in a really unique way: before and after a hard training run they were quite normal, also during a not important competition. Instead before and after a competition that mattered those levels were off the chart – maybe one explanation why he was able to make the most of his form in the Olympics. I'm afraid the book telling about this study is not translated to English, but the literal translation would be "The secrets of running", by Mauno Saari.

3) I've received a junior xc running medal from Lasse when I was 7 years old. As Fox Mulder would say: I want to believe.

I don't like the analogy of the spitball in baseball with blood doping. Even after it was banned, the penalty for throwing a split ball is more similar to relatively minor penalties in other sports like a 5 minute major penalty for fighting in ice hockey or a flagrant foul in basketball. While these acts are against the rules in the sense that they result in a penalty, they fall within normal strategy in a typical game. There are other acts, however, which are considered beyond the pale. In hockey for example, fighting is accepted and can be employed for strategic purposes but cutting someone with your skate is anathema. In baseball throwing at a batter is accepted but garners a penalty while intentionally throwing a bat (which is much more dangerous) is shunned. Commonpenalties aren't what we normally think of as ways too cheat. They are simply part of the sport.

Returning to the baseball, I'd liken blood doping/PEDs much more to gambling (for which Pete Rose was banned for life) than to split balls (which got Gaylord Perry into the hall of fame).

Suomi,

Do you recall Reino Paukkonen I ran against him at the Western Hemisphere Marathon in 1973?

Igy

HRE wrote:

yep,, wrote:

No proof, then.

How would you prove someone wasn't cheating?

On Letsrun you always put the burden of proof on the accused when it comes to doping.

People also argue like this: "X claims he is clean. So did Lance, Marion and many others and they doped. Therefore x must be using PEDs too.

Glad to see other posters chine in with intelligent posts. Rjm, Aragon, HRE always make this place interesting.

Aragon, so you don't have to retype everything, here is a thread from last year:

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6613364

Lots of details on those "off years" between Olympics, and more insight into the climate of the national team, etc.

I did confuse the steeplechaser who admitted blood doping. He was not the WR holder.

All we can do is discuss, with our skepticism/cynicism being the deciding factor, it seems.

Aragon, since you know a lot, I was able to find the name of the Finnish Olympic athletics doctor from 72 on (later the whole Finnish team doctor), Sakari Orava. Does he have any reputation? Like that of Eddy B (USA cycling coach behind LA transfusions), or Conconi? Any connections with Jouko Elevaara? I'm curious about the logistics of Ala-Leppilampi transfusions. They were for anemia, but is that something the team doctor would suggest? Or just help facilitate? Or not at all?

yep,, wrote:

Cleansport wrote:

John Walker obviously thinks Viren was blood doping, judging by the podcast! I always had suspicions but never heard anyone calling it like that!

Any proof that Walker wasn´t cheating?

Walker wasn't smart enough to follow a dosing regimen.

Sorry, I don't, just have heard the name. I wasn't born when he competed, so I really know only the medalists from those times.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Suomi,

Do you recall Reino Paukkonen I ran against him at the Western Hemisphere Marathon in 1973?

Igy

Prove it,

I have a copy of Run the Lydiard Way in front of me and in it there is a photo of Tom Hansen and quote "The man Arthur Lydiard says could have won the 1500-metres event at Montreal" yet his pb was 3:39 and Walker could do that with ease, this published less than 2 years after Montreal. The only one who could of beaten Walker was Bayi and he was stuffed by 1976, just like Komen by 2000. Numerous times Lydiard went out of his way to cheapen Walker's victory.

I do still like Lydiard, a lot, but if the East Germans or the Chinese were clearly doping but doing 120-150 miles per week at the same time. Lydiard would say "see they're winning because they're doing lots of mileage."

Suomi,

Reino Paukkonen was 21st at Munich Olympics and had a best marathon of 2014.

Igy

Indeed, that was exactly what he said when we discussed them. He compared what they were doing in women's running to what his guys were doing with men's running in the 50s and 60s.

I don't think there can be any conclusive proof on Viren - although he may have been blood doping, as others have pointed out it wasn't illegal at the time so perhaps it's not a big deal anyway.

I also don't think we should read too much into the Finnish resurgence in the 1970s - they did of course have a rich heritage in distance running in the 20s & 30s. Perhaps adopting Lydiard training had more benefit to the Finns because it reinforced the environmental factors that had made them great before.

You could make a similar argument with New Zealand now. It was 32 years between Olympic 1500m medals for NZ, and now they've qualified 3 runners for the men's 1500m in Rio. I'm not arguing that this latest generation of NZ 1500m runners are going to have the same level of success as the Finns in the 70s or the Kiwis in the 60's & 70's, just that the factors that made NZ runners successful in the 60's & 70's are probably similar to the factors that have seen 3 athletes from a country of 4.5 million qualify now.

On the Viren vs Quax & Dixon thing, while it's true that Quax & Dixon were both successful over 1500m, that was a while before. Quax was 2nd behind Keino at the 1970 Commonwealth Games, and Dixon got the bronze over 1500m in Munich in 1972. I'd suggest they'd probably sacrificed some of their 1500m speed to become competitive over 5000m. New York Marathon winner Rod Dixon is hardly a classic 1500m specialist anyway.

One last point on NZ related issues that have come up here - if there ever was a Maradona - Pele dispute over who was the greatest Kiwi athlete between Snell & Walker, it was short-lived. For example, the country's largest newspaper, the NZ Herald, has just ranked Snell as the greatest NZ Olympian ever, with Walker down in 13th.

I also have my copy of Run the Lydiard Way on the shelf right here. I also (just by coincidence) have the T&F Issue from Dec, 1993 that I saved…because it is the issue with the Chinese records that still stand today. I knew they were doping in 1993. The article also mentions that coaches from East Germany had visited China in the previous years.

Here is what Arthur Lydiard said in 1993:

"If only one woman had gone out and had run that fast 3000 time, I'd have been a little skeptical. When five of them do it, I realize they have a legitimate program going."

It is incredible to look back at all the same arguments on why they were clean: different culture, harder work ethic (for only the women?), discipline, group training (with a coach who was never a runner himself!), altitude training in Tibet, 180 miles per week, caterpillar fungus, Coach Ma's perfection of the big race peaking phase…sound familiar?

Arne Ljungqvist, the head of the IAAF medical commission at the time said..."The attempt to explain it by drug abuse is an unintellectual approach. I tend to look for normal, rational explanations."

Renato Canova has stated that he thinks Wang Junxia was just naturally talented and clean, but maybe the other Chinese women were doping. The fastest one was clean. She could outrun boys when she was young.

And here we are 23 years later:

Ha Ha Ha

TrackBot! PRs Lasse Viren

PRs for Lasse Viren:

1500 m (Outdoor): 3:41.8h on 29 Jun 1976

2000 m (Outdoor): 5:08.6h on 21 Sep 1972

3000 m (Outdoor): 7:43.2h NR on 27 Jul 1972

Two Miles (Outdoor): 8:14.0h NR on 14 Aug 1972

5000 m (Outdoor): 13:16.3h NR on 14 Sep 1972

10000 m (Outdoor): 27:38.35 on 3 Sep 1972

Marathon (Outdoor): 2:13:11 on 31 Jul 1976