Viren cheating?

Very easy to accuse someone of cheating today IMO. And makes you a big celeb for "clean sport" when you do so. The balance has been tipped, easier to talk big than be silent now.

Cleansport wrote:

John Walker obviously thinks Viren was blood doping, judging by the podcast! I always had suspicions but never heard anyone calling it like that!

Here is the earliest study I have found on the use of autologous blood transfusions to improve aerobic performance:

Ekblom B, Goldbarg AN, Gullbrin B. Response to exercise after blood loss and reinfusion. J Appl Physiol. 1972;33(2):175–180.

The study was published in 1972.

It is just another coincidence.

Right?

I was a kid then and I remember talk around that time that blood doping was what athletes did. Was it illegal then?

Not illegal in the '70s.

undisputed wrote: Was it illegal then?

Caster Semen.....ya wrote:

You can tell that Viren was a doper because if you watch the last lap of the 1976 5000m final Quax and Dixon had higher leg speed turn-over/fuller gait then Viren yet he was moving away from them.

He was using a specail juice that allowed him to run faster with a lower stride rate and shorter stride length.

I believe Carl Lewis was talking about Linford Christie, not Chris Christie

Look The wrote:

I believe Carl Lewis was talking about Linford Christie, not Chris Christie

Yeah, it does not appear likely that Chris has ever broken 20 in the 100.

I re-watched the race. I'd forgotten how close Pre was at the end (ran out of gas and finished a very close 4th). He ran often in lane 2 or worse and did a lot of surging to the lead that probably cost him a medal. Very much in character for Pre.

Even at the time there was a lot of discussion of Viren and blood doping. It was legal (no one had thought to make it illegal), but widely regarded as unethical, unsportsmanlike, etc. The Finn's kept their secrets.

Caster Semen.....ya wrote:

You can tell that Viren was a doper because if you watch the last lap of the 1976 5000m final Quax and Dixon had higher leg speed turn-over/fuller gait then Viren yet he was moving away from them. Quax I think beat Kip Keino over 1500m and Dixon ran 3:33 for 1500m yet Viren could only do 3:42?? and yet he out sprinted guys who trained each day with Walker. It would be like me jogging faster then Bekele at full speed. Then look at the 1972 5000m final and again you see the same thing. No coincidence. I can't believe the Finns aren't ashamed. But then again, I saw Carl Lewis ripping into Chris Christie a few years back and I thought to myself I can't believe people still take this guy seriously as a national hero.

Very poor argumentation. True, Quax and Dixon were much faster milers and true, everyone expected one of them to win when they were still in the leadpack before the home stretch. But have you really watched the race? Viren altered the tempo at the early phases and stayed on the inner, saving energy, making everyone else look like a bunch of village idiots running the second and third lane. His opponents' fear made them all use energy during the race, because everyone wanted to stay close to Viren. The last mile was about 4:04, most of which Viren was keeping the inner lane, making the milers take extra steps even on the last turn. So, a runner with superior aerobic capacity made his rivals run a longer distance. When they arrived at the home strecth those milers were already swimming in lactic acid, whereas Lasse only switched to his highest gear. It was not a mile time trial; it was a fast and tactical 5000m race, where the winner was better both physically and psychologically.

And a short comment to the original speculation about whether Viren did or did not do blood doping. I am from Finland and Viren was my childhood hero. I can not say for sure. But I heard from a doctor who used to work with Finnish athletes, that Viren's natural red cell values were already so exceptional that he hardly would have benefited from any extra blood, instead it would have been a health risk. And as another argument: Viren's records 13:16 for 5k and 27:38 for 10k are "crap" today. If he was surely blood doping, what would that tell about any decent runners today?

In '76 after heats and finals of the 10 and 5, then a 213 marathon, Viren ran a 823 2 mile 5 days later in Philadelphia.

Obviously....he was doping, and not just blood boosting.

Yes Viren was blood doping. But since blood doping was legal then it technically was not cheating. Pekka Vassala likely blood doped as well.

Viren was in poor form for four years (1972 to 1976), then suddenly in 1976 he won two gold medals. That is the definition of an abnormal progression.

Viren's PR's are as meaningless as Mo Farah's. He fell down in the race where he set his 10k PR. He never ran for time in peak shape.

"Very poor argumentation".

Do you mean very poor argument?

Mein Gott wrote:

"Very poor argumentation".

Do you mean very poor argument?

Yep :)

As far as other competitors in that era go, I've read Frank Shorter accuse waldemar cierpinski of using PEDs. Anyone know what Shorter thinks about Viren?

CHEIKHA wrote:

Viren was in poor form for four years (1972 to 1976), then suddenly in 1976 he won two gold medals. That is the definition of an abnormal progression.

Poor form… kind of, yet an exaggerated myth. 1974 bronze in European championships is not poor. And 1975 he was injured. You have to also remember that he was only interested in the Olympics. Those days there was this ridiculous concept called amateur sports, so there weren't any cash prize Diamond League kind events during the non-olympic years, so the motivation to stay in peak shape wasn't so high. Only olympic glory mattered to him. And I wouldn't call the years 1972-1976 progression; Viren stayed quite the same, the rivals were different and just not quite good enough.

I'm amazed as well that anyone takes Chris Christie seriously. And that anyone believes Viren was not blood doping.

Is there any actual evidence that he did or is it all just rumor?