Why no Emma Coburn DQ?

Comprehension wrote:

rojo wrote:

People. Do you not read the front page? We went over this extensively in our race recap:

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2015/06/emma-coburn-sets-meet-record-in-womens-steeple-as-stephanie-garcia-and-colleen-quigley-pr-and-punch-their-tickets-to-beijing/

What Coburn did by rule is supposed to be a DQ.

People aren't reading the rule correctly. The rule says if you step over the curb on a turn, you are DQd unless you were pushed or forced inside the curb.

No. The rule is very clear. It says that if an umpire reports that you stepped over the line then you are DQd. You can't be DQd simply cos some guy on a messageboard says you stepped over the line.

No umpire reported that she stepped over the line, she wasn't DQd, I don't see which rule is meant to have been broken here.

Three Umpires sitting at a bar:

Umpire #1: I call 'em as I see 'em!

Umpire #2: I call 'em as they ARE!

Umpire #3: They aint nothin' 'til I call 'em!

You would be with Umpire #3. I think most of the sporting world would disagree with that after the first non-call hurt their team. After all, isn't the first thing a fan screams at a ref "Are you blind!"?

A willful refusal on behalf of a referee to make the correct call can be defined as corruption.

Star wrote:

F the stupid rules as written.

Does she deserve to be DQed or not?

No

There was a good TV replay DURING THE EVENT that clearly showed Coburn had hit the rail and then stepped inside of it.

Sorry to repeat myself, but if AlSal were coaching Leah O'Connor, I'm 99% sure he would have heard about the replay, brought it to the attention of race officials, and gotten Coburn DQd.

I guess they didn't see it and no one protested. Besides why ON EARTH would anyone want this talented U.S athlete with hopes for medals (at world and Olympics) want her out and not get the experience and competition?

Everyone knows she is the class of U.S.A. women's steeple and I think it sas a lot that no one protested. She made an honest mistake, she wasn't cheating.

Comprehension wrote:

rojo wrote:

People. Do you not read the front page? We went over this extensively in our race recap:

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2015/06/emma-coburn-sets-meet-record-in-womens-steeple-as-stephanie-garcia-and-colleen-quigley-pr-and-punch-their-tickets-to-beijing/

What Coburn did by rule is supposed to be a DQ.

People aren't reading the rule correctly. The rule says if you step over the curb on a turn, you are DQd unless you were pushed or forced inside the curb.

No. The rule is very clear. It says that if an umpire reports that you stepped over the line then you are DQd. You can't be DQd simply cos some guy on a messageboard says you stepped over the line.

No umpire reported that she stepped over the line, she wasn't DQd, I don't see which rule is meant to have been broken here.

Relying on one human, fallible umpire to see and call all potential violations within his/her purview is exactly why there is now video replay in most major sports. Heck, if track was run like golf, some TV viewer/messageboard dude could actually have called in and forced a ruling to be made - it's happened numerous times.

In fact, if track was run like golf, Coburn would be honor bound to DQ herself. And the fact she didn't gain a material advantage from her 2 steps inside the curb wouldn't matter; there are all sorts of golf rules that don't depend on an advantage being gained to be considered violated. Neither does the rule in question here. Perhaps it should be written that way for the future, but that has nothing to do with whether the rule as presently written was violated.

What bothers me is not Coburn going (it would be a tragedy if she didn't) or O'Connor not going, it's that there is no transparency to this situation - par for the course for USATF. A rule, as written, was clearly violated. The only possible penalty for breaking that rule is a DQ. Millions (well, at least thousands) saw it. Yet USATF has no explanation or even acknowledgment that there's a legitimate issue here. There should be a DQ, an appeal, a discussion, and a ruling, and it should all be out in the open. Won't happen, though, because USATF.

I don't currently work for any program. I have one goal: helping founders. I am only sharing their perspective. It's no secret.

6:24 in to the race you can see the official on that bend waving a yellow flag.

Technical Writter wrote:

ANOTHER poorly written rule...

So two strides on the line, one off, two on the line, one off for an entire race definitely would give someone an advantage, yet by written definition, that is legal in the high school world?!?

At the USATF level, one step on or inside a lane line is grounds for disqualification!??!

Try using this method for an entire race sometime, and tell me if it gives you an advantage.

There were at least 50 non calls at USATF. You guys should really read the impeding other runners. Pretty much every time you see a pass in a non lane race, you see a violation. You can apply this to all sports. Basketball is technically a non contact sport. Football limits contacting receivers to 5 yards off the line of scrimmage. Hickey has enforcers due to refs not making calls and had to write rules to make them legal when they became ubiquitous. Baseball...well, I hate baseball so who knows.

Where were all you guys when Grunewald trampled Hasay?

Star wrote:

F the stupid rules as written.

Does she deserve to be DQed or not?

And there you have it. The purest possible expression of outcome-based determination and contempt for the rule of law that one could make.

Just one question: Would you be ok with me deciding if Emma "deserves" to go or not, based on whatever standards I choose to use, if any?

The thing is, you don't have to toss the rules out the window to get our best 3000SC runner to Beijing. The rules as written, as a whole, probably contain some loophole somewhere that would allow for an appeal of her DQ, if there was one, to be granted. That would be infinitely preferable to what is going on now.

The advantage she gained was that if she had fought to stay on the track she would have landed on her face and Garcia would have won the race.Should have been a DQ.

John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith wrote:

Emma is too nice and pretty to be DQ's. Besides, she is the best steeplechaser in the U.S. There was no advantage gained in stepping inside the rail for two steps.

Jack Frost wrote:

Anyone who really thinks she should be DQ'd is crazy. First off there was really little to no advantage gained. She was clearly not trying to gain an advantage. Miss step or not no one was beating Coburn. Why would you want her DQ'd anyway? Do you not want the best representing the USA? I would understand if perhaps it was a close race. It wasn't. And why would the officials DQ a medal hopeful for doing something that did not impact any others in the race and it clearly did not determine the race outcome.

You are showing EXACTLY WHY there need to be firm rules and officials with the GONADS to enforce them.

What a joke.

Don't trip! wrote:

Technical Writter wrote:

ANOTHER poorly written rule...

So two strides on the line, one off, two on the line, one off for an entire race definitely would give someone an advantage, yet by written definition, that is legal in the high school world?!?

At the USATF level, one step on or inside a lane line is grounds for disqualification!??!

Try using this method for an entire race sometime, and tell me if it gives you an advantage.

I would only do it on the curves, but it would easily allow for a shorter distance to be covered by working the line.

Technical Writter wrote:

Don't trip! wrote:

Try using this method for an entire race sometime, and tell me if it gives you an advantage.

I would only do it on the curves, but it would easily allow for a shorter distance to be covered by working the line.

Ha, feel free to try on a normal high school track, but if the track has a rail/curb/kerb, it might not be that great an idea.

Fentrekker wrote:

Sir, your assumptions about the age and demographic characteristics of those with whom you are debating undercuts your observations. Personally, I am one of those nerds who will dutifully stop for a red light at 2 am when there is no other car in sight. I simply disagree on this issue. That said, I wouldn't have cried foul if Coburn had been disqualified. But neither do I consider it a travesty that she was not. Your outlandish conclusions about people who disagree with you are rather hyperbolic, and not helpful.

lol

My guess is because Drenth is a stand up guy and knew Leah wasn't better than Emma on that day and didn't deserve the spot. I'm a big fan of MSU cc and track and fully support that decision. Qualify to world's when you know you don't deserve it wouldn't feel great. When Leah qualifies for the Olympics next year it will be because she earned it not cause of a silly dq.

You are right. I was assuming that anyone with my age and experience would have the common sense to know that cutting the turns would be a DQ without having to read the rule book. If I was wrong, then I apologize, and please be assured that my back-handed insults were meant for those of all ages who can't grasp the obvious.

Your input has been most helpful. I am evolving and growing before your very eyes.[/quote]

According to the rules, it should have been a DQ...period. However, an official has to see it, raise the flag and/or it has to be petitioned for a DQ...period. Plain and simple, based on what I explained above, technically this is not a DQ and life goes on. Officials will call a violation 99% of the time, but they are human and are fully aware of what's at stake and if an infraction did not advantage/disadvantage anyone and/or affect the outcome of the race they will look the other way. No official (no one) wants a WC medal contender to be DQed under those circumstances and the coaches of the other athletes obviously felt the same way. - Btw, I have seen IAAF officials at DL meets make similar calls.

Officials are human.

Actually, what makes the sport a joke are people who would disqualify someone for an unintentional and not advantageous step over the rail.What is with the LRC bunch and nailing people rather than celebrating the sport?Get out and run, you little skid.

Trackfan334 wrote:

Our sport has become a joke, that's why. USATF picks their favorites, to whom the rules do not apply.