David Epstein/Pro Publica/BBC Story: Former Team Members Accuse Famed Coach Alberto Salazar of Breaking Drug Rules

gray line in the sand wrote:

I think this is going to fizzle. The thing is that Salazar is all about skirting the legal line, doing everything he can while keeping the tests coming back clean. Apparently he thinks if you're testing negative, you're not cheating.

And even if most of us know this is immoral and against the spirit of the sport, there's no definitive smoking gun here and probably will never be.

I think the way forward is to stigmatize his group enough that runners (and maybe even sponsors) don't want to be associated with it, not for fear of testing positive but because of the backlash, distrust, and stigma.

yeah - the way forward is to give Nike the willies

which is hard - they are pretty shameless. But not completely shameless.

What I want to see is waves and waves of chanting, every time Gatlin or other dopers race: "Dooooooper! Dooooooper! Doooooper!"

that kind of thing would scare the moneyboys.

The thing is he apparently has already violated several laws by giving out drugs without a prescription. That's almost more serious than any doping allegations. Because one could get him banned from the sport. The other could get him some prison time.

ladedah wrote:

William Windsor wrote:

Extremely important to recognise that Mo Farah is not accused of anything at all.

Yeah, I laughed at that when I read the BBC article. Of course the British newspaper is going to defend the British athlete.

YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED BY HOW MANY BRITS HAVE NO LOVE FOR MO. If there was anything as suspicious as galen's allegations, it would have been included in the piece.

Looking at this from a different angle...

On the off chance that any of this speculation bears out to be true, I can't wait to hear how Salazar reconciles the lying and cheating with his devout Catholic religious beliefs. Few things provide a more hearty laugh than to listen to a religious hypocrite (is that redundant?) try to justify wrong-doing.

I would be interested in seeing evidence that indicates Nike is shameless but not "completely shameless." What have they done to merit this praise?

rrry wrote:

yeah - the way forward is to give Nike the willies

which is hard - they are pretty shameless. But not completely shameless.

.

gray line in the sand wrote:

I think this is going to fizzle. The thing is that Salazar is all about skirting the legal line, doing everything he can while keeping the tests coming back clean. Apparently he thinks if you're testing negative, you're not cheating.

And even if most of us know this is immoral and against the spirit of the sport, there's no definitive smoking gun here and probably will never be.

I think the way forward is to stigmatize his group enough that runners (and maybe even sponsors) don't want to be associated with it, not for fear of testing positive but because of the backlash, distrust, and stigma.

Agreed. You think they don't test Galen all the time themselves? Please.

rojo wrote:

I\'m abou 2-3rds through the first piece. So many classic lines and paragraphs.

george oscar bluth wrote:

(Kara Goucher) remembers what Salazar said one night in 2011 as a group of Oregon Project runners gathered in an altitude training house in Park City, Utah, to watch \"60 Minutes\" as Lance Armstrong\'s teammate Tyler Hamilton detailed the team\'s doping. Salazar, she says, \"was like, \'Tyler\'s just trying to sell books and he\'ll write about Lance\'.\" Then, she says, Salazar added, \"I mean, of course Lance is dirty\" almost as an afterthought. But Goucher says it was clear who Salazar thought was in the wrong. \"Tyler was this bad person,\" she says.

I didn\'t think there was much I would agree with AlSal about but there it is. Tyler Hamilton is a POS. The only thing worse than a cheater is cheater who thinks saying someone else did it too makes them better. Tyler is on the very short list of pro athletes with even less integrity than Lance.

Farah told the BBC: "I have not taken any banned substances and Alberto has never suggested that I take a banned substance.

"From my experience, Alberto and the Oregon Project have always strictly followed Wada rules and if there is ever a question seek guidance from Usada to ensure they are correctly interpreting Wada's rules."

Brianruns10 wrote:

The thing is he apparently has already violated several laws by giving out drugs without a prescription. That's almost more serious than any doping allegations. Because one could get him banned from the sport. The other could get him some prison time.

the better question is if this and other information is enough for USADA to start or step up an investigation of NOP.

because it's clear that USADA doesn't need an actual positive test to punish.

And once you start pulling on a thread (like the unprescribed medicine) it is pretty easy to find more rule breakage. There's never just one breakage.

So is this enough for USADA to move?

Chet Manly wrote:

Shouldn't they actually have some evidence rather some vague and unverifiable stories?

For those who don't have much time to read:

Chet Manly, the ProPublica article and other articles combined give at least 3 pieces of physical evidence to back up stories, many of which are corroborated by multiple witnesses, on the public record.

Physical Evidence:

*Alberto's check to massage therapist John Stiner, reimbursing him for shipping him "androgel"

*Magness' photos of 16 y/o Galen Rupp's hemo records showing him taking "prednisone and testosterone"

*A photo of a meds bottle purportedly given to Kara Goucher by Alberto w/ the coach's hand-written "Cytomel" on the makeshift label

For those who want to read more:

First of all, Chet, this is not a trial. To convict in a trial, you're supposed to have evidence (of course, that's not always how it goes, but anyway).

This is journalism. In journalism, a journalist talks to people, on and off the record, gathers as much physical evidence as they can (see immediately below) and then cross-checks and verifies as much as possible (such as speaking with Magness' parents and another AlSal athlete who confirmed Magness' story about Rupp's medical report). Good journalism outfits will edit out stuff that's not corroborated or relevant. In this case, there's both material evidence and a pattern of behavior coming from on-the-record testimony from a number of people who have a lot to lose from lying (Gouchers, Magness, etc), or even from telling the truth.

As outlined above, here are at least a couple examples of physical evidence that go beyond your "vauge and unverifiable stories":

1. Magness' pictures of the "prednisone and testosterone" document

2. The John Stiner Androgel receipt

3. The Goucher/Salazar "Cytomel" meds bottle

Consistent Patterns of Behavior

They also have "testimony" from many witnesses that points to a consistent pattern of illegal behavior. For example, the reported TUE manipulation. Rupp admits to using TUEs and Salazar admits to using TUEs. Well, Goucher has several stories that indicated Rupp and Salazar abuse TUEs. This "alleged" pattern of behavior is similar to other "alleged" patterns of behavior with physical evidence to back them up. Just like w/ TUEs, Rupp and Salazar admit to properly using thyroid and allergy medication and "testoboost", but there is evidence that they improperly abuse them (see Cytomel and androgel and 16 y/o med reports for physical evidence of a pattern of behavior).

Credible Witnesses?

Also, if they lacked credibility, these witnesses could all have chosen to implicate Farah. If they were just out to get Nike and Alberto and the NOP, then they would implicate the multi-gold winner. But no, none of them did. This indicates that they are sticking to events for which they have actual, legit evidence. Of course, a reasonable person (such as myself) will assume that Farah is getting "the best Nike science can offer", especially when he runs and acts like a person chock full of testosterone, and trains w/ and befriends a convicted doper in ETH or KEN (I forget, and don't have time to locate this source). Wouldn't the BBC and ProPublica love to have this evidence against Farah? You bet. But they don't, so being credible journalists, they say so.

....... wrote:

rojo wrote:

I'm abou 2-3rds through the first piece. So many classic lines and paragraphs.

I didn't think there was much I would agree with AlSal about but there it is. Tyler Hamilton is a POS. The only thing worse than a cheater is cheater who thinks saying someone else did it too makes them better. Tyler is on the very short list of pro athletes with even less integrity than Lance.

...how is he worse than Lance? Everything you just mentioned about him could be said equally for Lance, if not moreso.

from the BBC article: "Salazar is said to have told others he had carried out this experiment to safeguard against his athletes being sabotaged by rivals surreptitiously rubbing testosterone on them in order to make them fail a drugs test."

That is completely anecdotal gossip and may simply be a made up story.

It's exactly how past stories of Salazar depict him... taking extreme and methodical measures to react to what most people would consider insane paranoia...

Also... it's hilarious. Maybe Rupp seems so outwardly awkward because he's secretly always watching out for people jumping out and wiping steroids on him?

fb123 wrote:

"Kara Goucher, the most prominent female runner in America," ?? I guess that's debatable. I'd go with Allyson Felix or Sanya Richards-Ross.

It's Kara and it's not close. Shalane second. Many more readers of Runners World than there are attentive Olympic watchers in the US.

Bbc. Is plain terrible. wrote:

William Windsor wrote:

Extremely important to recognise that Mo Farah is not accused of anything at all.

No bias there from BBC. #Eyeroll

I guess looking at the fact thar he got better with age and after joining NOP is perfectly legit.

It's not the Beeb's fault if no-one has accused Farah explicitely yet. There is pretty much no doubt in my mind now that Farah is on something, but you've got to recognise that the reason the BBC would mention Farah is that he is pretty much the only person the British public will care about, not some American they've never heard of.

Here's the Ken Goe follow up:

http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/2015/06/some_quick_takes_on_the_bbc_al.html

I'm extremely cynical about doping, and I've said in the past that I thought some high school athletes and all of our top pros dope.

What strikes me as odd about this piece is the idea that Kara Goucher, one of the top female athletes in the world, is calling out Salazar and Rupp for doping. I found this odd because:

1. I had always assumed she was doping. If so, why would she get upset about Salazar and Rupp?

2. Why didn't Salazar have her on drugs immediately? Why was Galen the chosen one and not Goucher?

Maybe my level of cynicism is totally inappropriate? Or maybe the Gouchers are just upset that he tried to use them as guinea pigs instead of sticking to known methods?

I know I sound like a conspiracy theorist but something about this article hurts my brain.

The therapist worked for NOP. This isn't evidence that the therapist shipped androgel to Alberto. It's evidence that Alberto cut him a check for $150.Not defending Alberto, but the check doesn't prove anything, unless under one of those blacked out areas instead of a MICR code it reads "Thanks so much for shipping that androgel to me."Assuming NOP is guilty (and I'm guessing they are) this article is a huge disappointment. Maybe USADA is up to something, although they sure are taking their time.

we r living in a material wrld wrote:

Physical Evidence:

*Alberto's check to massage therapist John Stiner, reimbursing him for shipping him "androgel"

Centro's reaction

https://twitter.com/MattCentrowitz/status/606178216047288320

I can't be the only one who chuckled about this...."In the bathroom, Stiner says he found the bright green pills of a supplement called Alpha Male, and then, in the bedroom Rupp and Salazar had used, he found the testosterone gel amid clothing."https://www.propublica.org/article/former-team-members-accuse-coach-alberto-salazar-of-breaking-drug-rules

LetsRun.com wrote:

Investigative reporter David Epstein, who helped expose Lance Armstong, has a new story out.

Epsetin, who used to write for Sports Illustrated but now works for Pro Publica, has teamed up the BBC program Panorama and its reporter Mark Daly. The BBC will be airing a story on doping today at at 4 pm ET.

However a web version of Epstein's report is now out. We haven't read it yet but it's entitled, "Off Track: Former Team Members Accuse Famed Coach Alberto Salazar of Breaking Drug Rules"

https://www.propublica.org/article/former-team-members-accuse-coach-alberto-salazar-of-breaking-drug-rules

It looks like Magness is in the piece. Everyone read it and give us your thoughts.