well ok but really - there's so little money to be made in coaching track - at that level if people cheat it will be more for glory and pride than for money.
but not a major point.
well ok but really - there's so little money to be made in coaching track - at that level if people cheat it will be more for glory and pride than for money.
but not a major point.
xenonscreams wrote:
I stand corrected since DHEA is prohibited OOC. I agree it's a waste of USADA's resources though.
You stand corrected again, the race paid. Read the whole thread.
agip said:
"there's so little money to be made in coaching track" - wrong (for some).
"at that level if people cheat it will be more for glory and pride" - right.
J.R. wrote:
fred wrote:If I was taking a drug for my health, and it gave me an advantage over other
runners, then I wouldn't race against them, because I didn't beat them, the drug did.
If I took a pill and became a giraffe, and which gave me an advantage over other runners, then I would be very surprised.
You're an idiot
I guess I agree with the "one size fits all" antidoping system. We all run the same distances; we all play by the same rules.
I'm a masters myself, and I've been prescribed medications before that were against USADA regs. It's very easy to check -
http://globaldro.com/us-en/search/default.aspx
. In each case, I've gone back to the doctor and said "this won't work - can we try something else." I really don't have sympathy for this woman. If I know better, than she should too.
And yes, it raises tough questions when the medications that you need for health reasons are prohibited. And it's been noted to me before that it's highly unlikely I'll ever get tested, and I wouldn't be taking the meds for performance reasons, so why not take them.
Answer's easy - if you want to play by the game, you play by the rules. I use drugs for my exercised induced asthma. Luckily, they're allowed, per the Global DRO site. If they weren't, then I'd have to figure out another legal way to treat. Or find another activity.
There's likely a lot of ignorant violation at the hobby jogger level - they just don't think about it, because they're really just running the race to complete. I do think it might be a good idea to allow athletes to register for races in the "non-compete" category and be removed from prize eligibility - that would allow the person on corticosteroids to treat her Rheumatoid Arthritis to still run the local race and try for a PR.
But, in the absence of the "non-compete" category, anyone (including the 6 hour plus marathoner) is obligated to play by the same rules. We all run the same distance; we all run under the same rules.
absolutely ridiculous. are they going to start drawing from recreational runners and having a passport? I would have refused if I were her. 51 too? It's not like she's an up and coming professional. Talk about waste of lab fees and resources. Maybe it'd be ok if she were a former pro, but she's not, right?
fred wrote:
If I was taking a drug for my health, and it gave me an advantage over other
runners, then I wouldn't race against them, because I didn't beat them, the drug did.
Rupp does this. Isn't he the benefactor of a TUE?
messi wrote:
Rupp does this. Isn't he the benefactor of a TUE?
TUE's plural
After reading this thread, I didn't really research this enough. It looks like a complex issue.
What's the lesson for recreational runners? If you're just Average Joe Runner, do you really want the hassle and risk of peeing into a bucket at the end of a race? You could pee positive just taking OTC common cold medication an unknown number of nights beforehand, right?.
What if you get some false positive or some prescrption you take is flagged without you knowing it would be? Professionals research the list and must be very careful, but a hobby jogger isn't going to. A hobby jogger could place in the top if the competition is soft enough.
It sounds like these races need an opt-out from the prize money for regular runners.
darkwave wrote:
But, in the absence of the "non-compete" category, anyone (including the 6 hour plus marathoner) is obligated to play by the same rules. We all run the same distance; we all run under the same rules.
Do you really want USADA using their scarce resources to catch hobby joggers that might win a $20 gift certificate at their local 5k?
Let's put that effort into cleaning up the sport at the top of the food chain.
provellero wrote:
[Do you really want USADA using their scarce resources to catch hobby joggers that might win a $20 gift certificate at their local 5k?
Let's put that effort into cleaning up the sport at the top of the food chain.
You make a good point - limited resources should be focused primarily at the top.
On the other hand, even if finances could have been better spent elsewhere, that doesn't excuse her positive test (I'm not saying that you were arguing that).
I know that in my other sport (equestrian, where there's also a significant drug issue), there's a sense of "if it doesn't test or they're not testing, then it must be OK." And I think that attitude feeds into the regular drugging that we see at the highest levels in that sport.
My belief is that similarly, a belief that hobby joggers shouldn't worry about the rules because they'll never be tested does play into the general attitude about PED usage.
Haven't read the whole thread (only part of it), but wanted to comment on this:
senior citizen athlete wrote:
As a 60+ year old, I can tell you that it is fairly common for OB-GYNs to prescribe over-the-counter DHEA at 25 or 50mg for post-menopausal women. It is done because DHEA does boost their testosterone levels back into the normal range. Whether you want to call balancing hormone levels to what an MD considers proper healthy normal levels constitutes performance enhancement is a matter of semantics, but it definitely is a quality of life issue for most post-menopausal women with hormone balance issues.
First of all, "boost testosterone levels back into 'normal range'"-
* there is always controversy on what is "normal range" testosterone, and really, the levels will drop as you age, so are you saying the MD's try and get T back to "normal range" for a 40 y.o. woman, or "normal" for a 60 y.o. woman? If the former, then the level is not "normal". People age, hormones change, people get slower. Even if the latter, there are a lot of opinions on what the "normal range" really is. If, as others stated, people want to use pharmacotherapy to "enhance" their life, or feel younger, so be it. But that is not "normal", and if it is an advantage and against the rules, then is is cheating whether or not she cares.
* Secondly, about "what an MD considers proper healthy normal levels". This is often BS. It is well known that many MD's will hand out various drugs like candy, without even a blood test. This has been established in several news reports, including, prescribing Testosterone, again, WITHOUT A BLOOD TEST. So....a patients says: "Doc, I feel old and sluggish and not like my young self, I heard T or DHEA or X or Y drug will make me feel younger and better, will you prescribe?" And guess what? LOTS of Docs will say "YES", almost no questions or tests asked/done. My point is: just because a doctor prescribed it does *not* mean it was for a black and white issue of hormone deficiency. No, it's a "lifestyle" want-to-feel-younger issue often (And a: doc wants to keep his patients happy and the $ flowing issue). And that's ok I guess, but that's not a medically determined, clear cut NEED for the drug.
* lastly, we all the major mistake many doctors and women made listening to Big Pharma push HRT drugs to women in the past, with bad results for many (many deaths due to these drugs). so..... women should make the same mistake again by using new drugs for their post-menopausal "hormone balance "issues.: take a drug, feel a bit better short-term, suffer long term health consequences
messi wrote:
fred wrote:If I was taking a drug for my health, and it gave me an advantage over other
runners, then I wouldn't race against them, because I didn't beat them, the drug did.
Rupp does this. Isn't he the benefactor of a TUE?
"The medication typically prescribed for hypothyroid is a synthetic thyroid hormone known generically as levothyroxine. That drug is not a banned substance by the World Anti-Doping Agency and by all accounts has never been shown to enhance performance. Taking it requires no disclosure, and no permission from antidoping authorities."
darkwave wrote:
My belief is that similarly, a belief that hobby joggers shouldn't worry about the rules because they'll never be tested does play into the general attitude about PED usage.
It's much broader than that. The general public doesn't care about PED usage in running, or any other sport. I'm willing to bet that most people think PED use is commonplace in the NFL. How many people are willing to stop watching football even if they know the athletes are walking steroid machines?
In an ideal world we shouldn't have to test for cheating, but athletes from the best in the world to your next-door-neighbor hobby jogger will continue to cheat if they think they can get away with it. That said, the best way to clean up the sport is to crack down on the most visible athletes.
Look at cycling - I believe the sport is cleaner now because they did go after the big dogs and awareness of the issue probably trickles down to all levels of the sport.
plural wrote:
messi wrote:Rupp does this. Isn't he the benefactor of a TUE?
TUE's plural
are you sure? Salazar denies it. Here, from some obscure running website:
Earlier today, LetsRun.com published an article on the desire by former World Cross Country Champion Craig Virgin for there to be more transparency about the supplements athletes take and the Thereupeutic Use Exemptions (TUEs) they are granted. Virgin’s comments came after the American record two mile run and workout of Galen Rupp.
Ricky Simms, agent to Galen Rupp and Mo Farah, was quoted in the LRC article. After speaking to Galen Rupp’s coach, Alberto Salazar, about our story, Simms wrote LRC today to relay more information on the TUEs used by the Salazar coached Nike Oregon Project Athletes.
Ricky wrote in two emails:
“The one athlete in the Nike Oregon Project who has a current TUE is an athlete who is anaemic. The TUE is for iron injections to bring their iron level back to normal. The reason for getting a TUE was so that the athlete could get a slightly higher dose than normal purely for practical reasons, i.e. to reduce cost and save time. “
“TUE’s are normally issued for up to 5 days and to treat acute medical conditions.”
“The ratio of TUE’s by Alberto coached athletes is less than one per year in the entire group. The last time a NOP athlete had a TUE was 18 months earlier when an athlete got a TUE for 5 days to treat an acute allergic reaction. “
” Out of 11 NOP athletes coached by Alberto only 3 TUE’s have been issued while they were members of the NOP. “
” TUE’s are normally issued to treat acute medical conditions for short periods, typically 5 or 6 days.”
Ricky added, “Note that three years ago asthma inhalers were taken off the list and do not require a TUE….I am just giving you this information to highlight that TUE’s are not common and certainly not being abused in the NOP.”
As Simms noted many supplements and medications athletes take do not require a TUE.
Ricky Simms also confirmed that Galen will not try and break the American record in the mile next weekend at Boston University.
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/02/ricky-simms-gives-details-tues-nike-oregon-project/it may be a myth that NOP uses TUEs.
Not clear to me what the deal is with thyroid meds - if they need a TUE.
No one is winning races with DHEA. There's a reason you can get it over the counter. It probably shouldn't even be on the list.
I like her spirit personally and think USADA is run by idiots.
She got a longer ban for taking something (DHEA, get on pubmed people and educate yourself, it does essentially nothing) that amounts to a placebo effect, than Tom Danielson, David Zabriskie, George Hincapie, Levi Leipheimer, etc. got after hardcore doping (HGH, Testosterone, EPO, Corticos, Blood Transfusions) for most of their careers. Those guys made MILLIONS from doping and are still cashing in. Tyson Gay also got a one year ban. Same as this lady. WTF?! Give her a private warning and don't list her in the results for that race. Or, how about, leave the masters athletes alone and let people live the life they want to live.
It's really pathetic. If I were her I would get my story out and make fools of USADA. I guarantee you that a bunch of people who work for USADA are also taking doctor prescribed OVER THE COUNTER (found at any grocery store for God sakes!) supplements that make (via placebo effect) them better at their jobs, thus giving them an unfair competitive advantage. Hypocrites, every last one of them.
They need to get a clue and just give the bans to the real competitors who are REALLY doping, like the aforementioned cyclist were.
tyui wrote:
[quote]2 X Around wrote:
[quote]Soprano wrote:
http://masterstrack.com/2014/12/33461/"Now, I know that there are masters runners who ask their doctor to prescribe stuff like testosterone for a competition advantage, but there are also those who actually need it. "
I don't think you can get a doctors pass and TUE for testosterone. At least I hope not because then it would be a completely unfair advantage.
Are there any Masters runners legally taking Testosterone?
I'm not doc, but I'm sure many masters do have TUEs for T. here, usada has it as a choice on their TUE menu:
http://www.usada.org/substances/tue/apply/
Nobody gets a TUE for Testosterone. Nobody. Younger athletes in the past with osteoporosis due to low T can't get a TUE for it. They sure as hell aren't going to give it to a masters athletes that has low levels because they are old!
They know if they started giving TUEs for Testosterone all of a sudden hundreds of thousands of athletes would be requesting for it.
A good article was written by Dan Empfield over on Slowtwitch.com about this.
The upset on this board should not be directed at masters athletes, but instead should be directed at the pharmaceutical industry for convincing people they need to have hormone levels of a 23 year old.
Dragon Runner wrote:
I am sure tons of masters runners are going to anti-aging clinics and getting prescriptions for testosterone to bring their levels back to "normal". They don't worry about getting caught because the testing is almost nonexistent.
Absolutely. And if they are faster and happier in their day-to-day lives, good for them. Me, I run for myself and don't care if I beat 10 masters runners or 100. I just enjoy training and competing and never win money anyway so could care less if people are on drugs ahead of me. Even if I could win $100 here and there, how would that make any difference in my life? If it makes them happy, it can't be that bad.
That being said, I think hormone replacement is a mistake. It creates dependency on the pharmaceutical industry, and that's not something I would want.
^^^^ This
There are way to many age groupers on here getting too wrapped up in their age group placing. I used to be competitive. I still train hard and I compete hard. If there are a few extra folks pushing me at the end then I'm more than happy to place 3rd in my age group rather than first. At the end of the day I have no delusions of grandeur. It's all about exceeding my expectations. Once you're outside of the elite tier it, does it really matter where you place?