Salazar makes fun of HM WR holder Zersenay Tadese form compared to Rupp

Salazar's presentation was interesting. His points about good form were valid. Slight forward lean. No braking. Good back kick. Strong core. Minimal cross-over.

But he generalized quite a bit by saying Kenyans don't last because they don't work on form and Ethiopians do because they work on form. It could be true but it sounds like a simplification to justify his message.

*stipe wrote:

Salazar's presentation was interesting. His points about good form were valid. Slight forward lean. No braking. Good back kick. Strong core. Minimal cross-over.

But he generalized quite a bit by saying Kenyans don't last because they don't work on form and Ethiopians do because they work on form. It could be true but it sounds like a simplification to justify his message.

What do leaning forward, back kick, and crossover have to do with good form?

soks wrote:

*stipe wrote:

Salazar's presentation was interesting. His points about good form were valid. Slight forward lean. No braking. Good back kick. Strong core. Minimal cross-over.

But he generalized quite a bit by saying Kenyans don't last because they don't work on form and Ethiopians do because they work on form. It could be true but it sounds like a simplification to justify his message.

What do leaning forward, back kick, and crossover have to do with good form?

Nothing. Carry on.

in that video of the 2009 world 10k tadese in trying to break bekele is certainly moving his arms up and down, not merely side to side. the side to side motion in the hm doesn't do any running work, but it does waste energy: it takes energy to make your muscles and arms move, pseudo-physicist, and the rotation also takes away from your forward drive.

jjjjj wrote:

in that video of the 2009 world 10k tadese in trying to break bekele is certainly moving his arms up and down, not merely side to side. the side to side motion in the hm doesn't do any running work, but it does waste energy: it takes energy to make your muscles and arms move, pseudo-physicist, and the rotation also takes away from your forward drive.

You are the one who is a pseudo phycicist here. Show that side to side arm motion wastes energy. Also show that it takes energy for them to move side to side. I doubt you. You frequently talk nonsense on this forum.

jjjjj and pseudo are both right.

Show that side to side arm motion wastes energy

Easy to prove jjjjj's side by reductio ad absurdum. At the absurd extreme, if while trying to run forward one never moved their arms forward, and instead move them sideways, the legs would have to move sideways to maintain balance. It also takes more energy to do this while moving forward, because applying energy in a sideways motion is not going to move one forward, so extra driving energy from core and legs is required. Just try it, you'll see. Your feet will probably fly out sideways at the heels.

Now, if one backs off somewhat from 100% sideways arms, to 90% sideways and 10% forwards, you'll have an easier time of it, but still not as efficient as a more forward motion. And so on, until the sideways/forward ratio is optimal.

One can also look at sprinting and note that sprinting must be the most efficient running form, and that the best and fastest sprinters have minimal side to side arm movement, and so it is that distance runners should too. However, some sprinters are now playing around with torquing the hands/wrist in a twisting motion, to take advantage of the unloading of fascia, so we haven't heard the last word on this.

To support "pseudo", and all that being said above, i think Tadesse's sideways arm movement is perfect for him and not wasteful. The shoulder girdle and core is incredible complex. A slight twisting of the arm may be a part of the natural limitations of this tendons, ligaments, joint capsules and fascia, and his backward arm movement is probably a very relaxed automatic return due to the loading of all these tissues in a slightly inward curve.

What's the proof that his slight sideways movement is most efficient? Well, his WR (though just because someone is the best doesn't mean they can't improve by other tweaks), but more critically, the link below already proves it with real honest to gosh numbers. This thread is TLDR, my apologies if i'm repeating someone.

Can you two make and kiss now?

Its a Tie! wrote:

jjjjj and pseudo are both right.

Show that side to side arm motion wastes energy

Easy to prove jjjjj's side by reductio ad absurdum. At the absurd extreme, if while trying to run forward one never moved their arms forward, and instead move them sideways, the legs would have to move sideways to maintain balance. It also takes more energy to do this while moving forward, because applying energy in a sideways motion is not going to move one forward, so extra driving energy from core and legs is required. Just try it, you'll see. Your feet will probably fly out sideways at the heels.

Now, if one backs off somewhat from 100% sideways arms, to 90% sideways and 10% forwards, you'll have an easier time of it, but still not as efficient as a more forward motion. And so on, until the sideways/forward ratio is optimal.

You are right. That is absurd. Any non forward motion of the upper body is to counterbalance the legs. It does not waste energy. Something must move side to side.

I'll also add that in the HM video, second place Kitwara looks like a freaking octopus, arms and legs all over the place. He's the one who needs a form-workover, not Tadese. Tadese's lower body is incredible quiet and efficient, 100% forward motion.

I think Tadese's slight inward arm movement is due to his kyphotic spine. Next time you run, try with your chest up and neck straight, then try again with your neck hunched forward and the base and head down a bit (kyphosis), i suspect you arms will start to naturally swing sideways, then change back to chest up and neck straight and your arms will straighten out...note that both Cain and Rupp also have that slight hunch like they're bent over texting someone, and both have had sideways arm swing, though Galen his improved over the years.

Pot calling the kettle black.

Alberto is a great runner with terrible form. So it Tadese.

Rupp, coached by Alberto, has great form.

So of course the Master is bragging on his boy.

But Tadese--like Alberto--is living evidence of why great form isn't everything.

Tadese looks like a loping train wreck every time out. He works much too hard. Or so it would seem. I can only imagine what a chiro sees when he spies that form through x-ray spectacles.

Lateral displacement out the wazoo.

But the racing record speaks for itself. GOAT half marathoner?

So Alberto, looking ahead to Rupp's road racing career, is trying to clear space for his Boy.

This is all you need to know.

http://www.goodformrunning.com/

agip wrote:

the thing about al sal is that he had the ugliest form of anyone - brutal and even a little hard to watch.

he has lived his whole life knowing this, and has developed some kind of reflex - some sort of 'catcher in the rye' complex that makes him want to save all his young athletes from having to live with awkward running form.

thus he obsesses on it - in a vain attempt to do nothing other than fix his adolescence.

I feel for the guy but wish he'd get over it.

Exactly right.

Another way of putting it is "Amazing Grace."

Once I was lost, but now I'm found.

What's wrong with having learned a huge life lesson and trying to share it?

Any non forward motion of the upper body is to counterbalance the legs. It does not waste energy. Something must move side to side.

You comment is mostly pointless, as i've already agreed that Tadese's form is good. But let just break it down for fun: non forward movement...counterbalanced by the legs...no wasted energy. Hmmm, let me get this straight then, pseudo, if i run with my hands moving completely sideways with no, or next to no, forward motion, then they are counterbalanced by what? The legs, by your argument, and i agree to some extent (there's also the head and core). But if the arms are moving completely side to side without forward motion, how are those legs moving then? Absolutely perfectly front/back? I highly doubt it, you would end up looking like someone doing the Twist to Chubby Checker. If you can prove that's the most efficient running form, and the East Africans start setting new records with that form, then i'll admit you're right. Just what part of continuum (from absurd twisting, to sprinter straight) do you not understand? At some point, on the extreme end of the continuum, the energy put into twisting will generate momentum in the legs away from forward momentum, and as such that is wasted energy. Just try it, it's fun, and easy to feel, your heels will flair out away from the centerline.

Tadese: 26:37/58:2?

Rupp: 26:46/60:++

Tadese>Rupp.

Salazar is not a biomechanics expert right?

Why in the world has this group of supposed intelligent track/running fans spent this much time/energy discussing what amounts to nothing..?

I'll leave all of you with this...

http://youtu.be/hPoAgbgw_2M

It's not a sport it's a gold mine for those with enough talent and dope... "If you don't do your job someone else will....".

form critic wrote:

Zersenay Tadese is the poster child for runners who appear to have terrible form, but are actually very efficient runners. Maybe his stride does limit him in sprinting ability, but it certainly doesn't limit him for sustained speed (as you can see from his 58:23 WR).

If you've read Matt Fitzgerald's books you would understand how this is possible.

Messing with peoples strides is not good for development and Tadese is a great example of that. I'm all for efficiency through drills and sprints, but messing with someones mechanics almost always makes them less efficient runners.

They made similar criticisms of Lee Evans.

Its all about efficiency and comfort. He looks great. He's no Paula Radcliffe.

My comment is not pointless at all. The point is that I'm disagreeing with you. There's nothing "mostly pointless" about that. That is a clear point. My name is odod not pseudo. By my argument does not mean the legs.

Setting records with a form doesn't prove that a form is the most efficient If that is your criteria for proof then you are not ready for this discussion. The fact that you don't know what pointless means, that you can't read well enough to get my name correct, and that you as forcing a wrong interpretation of my argument further support that.

Here's some great footage of Zatopek in the 1952 Oly marathon. Does he have good form?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c4Z8cbcIiA

Salazar is brilliant and right-on. Anyone who has studied how the human body works knows he is talking truth. Most of the letsrun posters are complete idiots when it comes to real running knowledge. Salazar's success speaks for itself.. people criticizing him are probably 18:40 5K'ers shuffling along wondering why they are so slow. Get out of your own way and listen and then apply some of what he's saying.

Thanks for the video.

KudzuRunner wrote:

Here's some great footage of Zatopek in the 1952 Oly marathon. Does he have good form?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c4Z8cbcIiA

Berlino can't even keep up with Tadeses super efficient stride.