Frank Shorter in the NYTimes basically convicts all of Kenya for doping

What does Shorter know of Kenya? What do you know of Kenya? What we know is that there has not been out of testing competition there and there is in the US. Given that, does it surprise you that more Americans have been caught doping than Kenyans have? And what do malmo's posts about doping and Athletics West have to do with Shorter? He was well past his best years before Athletics West existed.

histrionic historian wrote:

John Stuart Mill wrote:

What Hitler did to Jews in Germany was perfectly moral. It was legal under the law. Germany today is not a more moral society for outlawing the practices that were legal under Nazi Germany.

interesting fact - only around 100,000 German jews died in the holocaust - there just weren't that many Jews in Germany before the war. F'in Nazis were such fantasists.

the real German killing machine was in Poland and the USSR, where 4 million Jews were killed. So really, 98% of the killing of Jews by Hitler actually WAS illegal, because they were in a different country.

But carry on.

You're arguing against a point I never made.

So Shorter shouldn't be concerned about the doping at AW because it happened after his prime? And the Kenyan scandal? Hes back in his prime again?

This is what I mean by hypocrites in the US.

CANOOOOOVA

Tommy2Nuttz wrote:

So Shorter shouldn't be concerned about the doping at AW because it happened after his prime? And the Kenyan scandal? Hes back in his prime again?

This is what I mean by hypocrites in the US.

Your view that Shorter speaking out against doping is hypocritical has already been dealt with.

Secondly, an argument stands on its merit. The person making it is irrelevant. If you have something against Shorter, pretend your grandmother is the one making the argument.

What we know:

Matthew Kisori, a sub 59 minute half-marathon runner, and also from the same camp as Rita Jeptoo, was busted for doping. He said that doping is rampant in kenya.

Renato has been saying that this is untrue and overblown. He also says that epo does not work on the kenyan marathon runners.

Drug testing is much more difficult to carry out in kenya than in developed countries because there is no lab in kenya to test samples collected.

This region (Iten specifically) happens to produce a disproportionate number of top level distance runners.

Rita Jeptoo, one of the most successful kenyan marathon runners in recent times, tested positive for epo.

This seems to suggest that, at the very least, one person does not believe Renato's opinion that epo does not work on kenyan marathon runners.

It seems reasonable to question what is going on in kenya and that wada officials need to investigate.

Regarding the above, to what exactly do you have an objection (besides "hypocrisy")?

How about we just assume everyone is guilty until they can prove their innocence?

Tommy2Nuttz wrote:

So Shorter shouldn't be concerned about the doping at AW because it happened after his prime? And the Kenyan scandal? Hes back in his prime again?

This is what I mean by hypocrites in the US.

As far as I've been able to tell Shorter has spoken out against doping and worked to eliminate it where ever it's happened. But that has nothing to do with the Kenyan situation, which is all he's quoted about in the link. It's not a comprehensive list of all his comments about doping and none of your comments are really relevant. Let's assume he hasn't said enough about AW. What does that have to do with the Kenyan situation?

Tell me this, do you agree or disagree with him that it's a problem for the running world that there is no out of competition testing in Kenya that should be corrected? That's the only topic at hand.

Les wrote:

Uh, no it was not. As HRE already described money changed hands IN PUBLIC. Everyone knew about it, including sporting officials who looked the other way. If you openly signed a contract like with the pro track circuit ITA, however, you were banned -- that would be competition with sanctioned meets. So the authorities were hypocrites, basically.

HRE was describing an era right before amateurism came to an end. Ask Jim Thorpe if it was taken seriously. And, if you don't think sporting officials "look the other way" in regards to drug use, then I ask you to read the Exum report.

Let me make two things clear: first, my issue with amateurism is not simply gamesmanship. There were those--and there still are those--who saw that true amateurism was the only way to protect athletics. In many ways, their dire prognostications were true. The rise of professional athletics has created the monsters of the NFL and the NBA. Athletics has become a profession-a lucrative profession at that. Since it is a profession, it understandable (perhaps not forgivable or likeable) that some athletes will do anything to get ahead in their profession.

Secondly, the real issue is that I see an analogy between the fight to preserve amateurism and the fight to "clean" up sports from drugs. Many--myself included--have predicted that PEDs will be legalized in some capacity in the near future (I predict by the 2028 Olympics or sooner). Amateurism gave way; legal PEDs are inevitable. Sorry but that's the reality I see. Shorter's bi-annual tirades are just irony. Nothing more.

There was a time when I wanted clean sports until I realized that 1) drug use was way more prevalent than I realized and 2) that no one really cared. I get that we care when someone is busted but how many of us will boycott the NFL or MLB until they insitute a full and comprehensive drug policy? How many of us will boycott major races until they test all elites out of season as Shorter suggested? How many of us will write our Attorney Generals and lobby for tough laws with mandatory jail sentences for PED users?

The world wants to be decieved. The world wants to believe that a 6'5" man can cleanly run the 100 meters .16 seconds faster than men doped to the gills; they world wants to believe a 6'8", 265lb man can play 82 NBA games a season and be healthy for the playoffs without using EPO; the world wants to believe in Mark McGuire and Lance Armstrong and Carl Lewis.

HRE wrote:

Tell me this, do you agree or disagree with him that it's a problem for the running world that there is no out of competition testing in Kenya that should be corrected? That's the only topic at hand.

There is out of competition testing in Kenya. John Ngugi refused to give a sample at his home in Kenya in 1993 and both Jeptoo and Kisorio had their infractions result from positive out of competition tests conducted in Kenya.

Augusto E. Perez wrote:

HRE wrote:

Tell me this, do you agree or disagree with him that it's a problem for the running world that there is no out of competition testing in Kenya that should be corrected? That's the only topic at hand.

There is out of competition testing in Kenya. John Ngugi refused to give a sample at his home in Kenya in 1993 and both Jeptoo and Kisorio had their infractions result from positive out of competition tests conducted in Kenya.

There is a difference between OOC testing and reliable OOC testing.

There also is no way to collect blood samples and get them to a lab within the allowable time limit in kenya.

Mundus Vult wrote:

the world wants to believe in Mark McGuire and Lance Armstrong and Carl Lewis.

Oops. Brain fart.

Carl testing positive for tiny amounts of pseudoephedrine and related alkaloids--too small to trigger a positive result under today's doping rules--contained in an herbal supplement he and other members of the SMTC were taking in 1988 & having the case summarily dismissed as inadvertent use does not equate to Carl using anabolic steroids, HGH, EPO, etc. etc.

The smear campaign against Carl by Ben Johnson that attempts to equate their respective "drug usages" is a reflection of Ben's complete lack of character and continuing refusal to take responsibility for his actions.

Jim Thorpe was banned for professionalism in a totally different era than we had in the 60s and 70s. I started following the sport in 1964 and then more seriously in 1967 when I went out for high school track. I can't think of anyone who was banned for taking money in that time or since. You need to go back to the early 50s when Wes Santee was banned for taking money and Haag and Andersson had gone the same route a few years before.

By the time I was into the sport professionalism was largely defined by your job. You could not be paid for coaching. I passed on a salary as high school coach because it would have made me a professional. You might not be able to write your autobiography if you were a runner because a contract or royalties might professionalize you but if you were already a professional writer you were likely OK. Athletes from the Commonwealth countries often complained about needing to compete against American professionals, college athletes on scholarships but we considered them amateurs.

Through it all, athletes "did deals" with meet promoters. Everyone knew it happened and no one was bothered about it and hadn't been for decades. But no, you couldn't thumb your nose at the whole system and announce that you'd gotten a couple grand from some promoter for showing up at his meet. That would have got you banned and that's why when Shorter testified about amateurism in front of Congress it was gutsy and why he needed to dance around his comments for the AAU.

I do agree with you about the relationship between PEDs and professional sports. I think it was Jimmy Green who started Athletics Weekly, the British track and field magazine. In the early 50s he was arguing that the sport should always be amateur because "if you have professional athletics you'll have a drug problem."

As I recalll, Ngugi was tested by the IAAF. There was no Kenyan equivalent to USADA. But fair enough. I'll rephrase and say sketchy dope testing in Kenya.

Texas Lone Star wrote:

If NYRR and BAA would be serious about anti doping, they'd stop inviting all Kenyan and Ethiopian runners until they implemented OUT OF COMPETITION testing in Africa.

What would the impact be? A few less no-names and American wins. Hard to argue against...

There is out of competition testing in Kenya. I don't believe there is OOC blood testing. Blood testing is fairly new anyway.

For people to act like there is no drug testing of Kenyan athletes is idiotic. Rita Jeptoo tested positive.

Just one more wrote:

The big marathons are a multi million dollar revenue generating events that could easily put into place a proof of purity clause and onsite event testing prior to race day. All elite elites are required are subjected to on site testing , it becomes part of the routine of the big marathons.

The WMM already has a strict code against cheating. There is onsite testing at races. Passing a drug test means very little. Lance Armstrong didn't get convicted for flunking a drug test.

Yes drug testing in Kenya could be a lot better. To imply Kenyans are only winning races because of doping ignores the 1990s when there was no independent testing authority in the US or Kenya and the Kenyans were still kicking our butt.

aebcb wrote:

Shorter voluntarily came out as receiving money to support his belief that athletes should be paid. When athletes voluntarily come out as taking PEDs to support their belief that taking PEDS should be legalized, they may get my grudging respect, if not my support.

I see, because PED users keep quiet about it and Shorter spoke out about it AFTER. keeping quiet abiut it during his heyday that makes a differece? The thing about moral relativity is that you get to make up immutable rules as you go. Right?

Shorter was an amatuer cheat, punishible by lifetime bans. He testified that he "broke every amateur rule" then retracted it by saying he was only speaking "hypothetically." How does one hypotheically say they broke every amatuer rule? Shorter is both a cheat and a liar.

Set his money cheating aside- what knowedge of his gives him the right to say that hat PED use by Kenyans is rampant?

The point is arguing that both doping and accepting money are equally reprehensible is foolish.

No.

What you're attempting to describe is the exact opposite of moral relativism.

Your insistence on vilifying Shorter as an athlete on the grounds that he did something that was against the rules then, but is not against the rules today, is to adopt a worldview that has consequences many would agree can't possibly be right.

See my earlier post -

Firstly, people have, with a few exceptions, the right to say whatever they want to say.

Secondly, I can't recall Frank ever saying that "PED use by Kenyans is rampant." Please give an example of him stating this.

wejo wrote:

Yes drug testing in Kenya could be a lot better. To imply Kenyans are only winning races because of doping ignores the 1990s when there was no independent testing authority in the US or Kenya and the Kenyans were still kicking our butt.

What does that mean? Are you saying that everybody (Kenyans and Americans alike) was doping in the 1990s, but since the Kenyans were still dominant, they were better anyway (the "level playing field" argument). I think that argument has been convincingly dismantled especially as it relates to cycling, and I'm surprised you would drag it out.

Plus, just because there wasn't testing, doesn't mean every nation had the same access to PEDs, or the same PED culture. As an illustration of this idea, do you really think, for instance, that Japanese marathoners had a significant PED culture? Maybe, but I doubt it, and I think that's a commonly held opinion. The fact is, we just don't know what went on. It's easily conceivable that a few Italian doctors in the '90s had a fair-sized EPO operation going on in Kenya, but no such system was established in the US at that time. Also, details matter. It's not always just a matter of having access to PEDs, but also having the services of the doctors with the best knowledge about how to use the drugs. Ask your homeboy Lance Armstrong about that.

As far as I'm concerned, until we determine how far back the rot in the Kenyan system goes, I'm not all that willing to even accept the whole "Kenyans are natural distance gods" argument. Maybe the whole thing is a bit of a sham. If it turns out that the African-dominated 90s were hugely influenced by EPO (which seems likely), then it is harder to accept the basic premise that East Africans are just plain way better than Americans and Europeans.

Les wrote:

Mundus Vult wrote:

(1) Judge amateur payments based NOT on how we feel about them today. Judge them based on their level of punishment while it was illegal. During the days of enforced amateurism, it was a huge deal regardless of how many people were doing it.

Uh, no it was not. As HRE already described money changed hands IN PUBLIC. Everyone knew about it, including sporting officials who looked the other way. If you openly signed a contract like with the pro track circuit ITA, however, you were banned -- that would be competition with sanctioned meets. So the authorities were hypocrites, basically.

Everyone knows about college football and basketball players getting paid no show Summer jobs and the use of free BMWs registered to boosters. When they get caught they get booted from college sports. "Everyone does it" doesn't work.

Shorter was wrong. Everyone wasn't getting paid when he was, only the elite of the elite were, making it more unfair that competing against PED users. At least PEDs were available to everyone who wanted the. The money (the strongest PED of them all) was only available to a select few.

Shorters acceptance of cash gave him an unfair advantage against those who had to get and keep a job to support his running hobby.

The whole Kenyan dominance in distance running is clearly a resultant of systematic doping. Look at all of the history/results from the 1968 Olympic distance events to now. Kenya had their breakthrough in Mexico because they had superior adaptations to altitude. Around the same time research was published demonstrating how epo could be used to stimulate blood cell formation. Some doctor took note and came up with the brilliant idea to go over and get them on the gear for the next Olympics. It's been that way ever since. Shorter isn't afraid to call them out on it and by, "them" I mean the dipsh*t doctors.