I think a great example of this, transitioning to D1 that is, will be this Spring when McKena Ramos runs track at Wisconsin. Transferred from D3 (Oshkosh) where as a true freshman won 3(?) individual championships. Probably a prime example.
Then there is that argument which could be another thread. Win multiple D3 championships, or go D1 and top out at All American or just be somewhat competitive.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5309369summernights wrote:
Then there is that argument which could be another thread. Win multiple D3 championships, or go D1 and top out at All American or just be somewhat competitive.
A Few Thoughts wrote:
If you're comparing races, you have to understand that for the top guys in D3, a lot of these races are time trials. Just in these last few years alone, many D3 runners have made the jump and shown that they are more than capable of running in D1 races
If you look at what happens in the converse situation (D1 guys moving to D3) it really shows the difference in competition.
1. Jake Brown of St Olaf was a JV runner at Princeton, running ~8:30 and ~14:30 and not making the traveling team in cross country. Three months into his career at St Olaf he finished 8th at cross country nationals. His fitness was probably the same as when he couldn't crack Princeton's top 10.
2. Josh Thorson of Eau Claire didn't make the roster at Minnesota last year. Minnesota didn't qualify for nationals. Thorson transferred to Eau Claire and looks like he'll be a top 10 guy at this year's national meet. He'd make Minnesota's roster this year but would not be a lock to be a scoring runner. Minnesota just finished 20th at the Wisconsin Adidas Invite.
Davey Gravy wrote:
Who are you answering? Did anyone actually say that DIII is as competitive as DI? No one thinks that unless they are totally delusional. Even the most pro-DII comments only seem to suggest that the occasional good DIII team would qualify for DI nationals or that there are sometimes very good individuals.
read some of the comments.
- DIII teams are never really pushed
- DI coaches keep DIII teams from competing with them at larger invitationals
- Listing out the number of DIII runners who might have contended at some level in DI
Smoke up wrote:
[quote]Run like a boss, Rick Ross wrote:
the point is Crain was the 2nd fastest NCC 10k guy ever, and he would not make the travelling team on the top 5 programs. that is the truth about DIII. Get used to it...
Crain, with PRS of 8:10/14:05/28:52 would not make the traveling team of top 5 programs? I call BS- outside of maybe Colorado this year, a 28:52 guy would make EVERY D1 team's top 5, let alone traveling squad. Your D1 bias is showing hardcore.
Smoke up wrote:
read some of the comments.
- DIII teams are never really pushed
- DI coaches keep DIII teams from competing with them at larger invitationals
- Listing out the number of DIII runners who might have contended at some level in DI
- Exceptional DIII runners are never pushed unless their coaches get them into elite races. There's a huge difference between running at a high performance meet and at your school's home meet. One example I just looked at is a guy with 8:20/14:10/29:50 PRs who was first in each of those races.
- This is a fact. I'm not sure what you're questioning.
- There are obviously some top DIII runners who would/could contend at DI. Most wouldn't.
But to return to OPs topic - The NC men's team would make it out of all of the d1 regional with at worst a 3rd place finish, and be top 15 at d1 nats...
Proof is in then beating #2 d2 school, handily... Now we could have the same discussion about d2 athletes being able to compete at a d1 level, but we all know that is a crock... So when the #2 d2 team falls you have to believe top 15 on any given day... Best finish being 6th
Depends how you define contend.
1: Cheserek
2-6: NCC's 1-5
7-on: Everyone else
Prove me wrong. YOU CAN'T.
At times i wish i would have gone D3 for the simple fact it would have allowed me to progress at my own pace. I was a high caliber recruit in high school, top 10 at footlocker and sub 9 and 4:10 miler. Immediately in college i was in over my head training too hard for my body to handle. I would have loved to stay at the 60-70 MPW and gradually increase but had no choice if i wanted to stay with the group. The workouts were so intense twice a week and I was routinely injured. If I would have gone to D3 I would have immediately been top 5 on any team and a Freshman AA. My mojo would stay high and i'd be training at a level to my ability and maybe only slightly above. I would go on to be a 10 time D3 champ and probably be a top 10-15 D1 runner through progression. Instead I settled for a couple time AA in cross and track. I was then burnt completely out after college. I did however get a scholarship and meet great friends but of course thats a different story.
Didn't rojo put up something about two (twins?) sub 9 guys going d3? Guess we will see how you would have fared...
I think what you are taking into account is how Ncc peaks their team perfectly for nationals. I like where your head is at... Very smart
Thinking about how D3 recruiting is different than D1, there\'s another \"advantage\" that schools like NCC have. There\'s no 12.5 limit or worrying about who\'s financial aid package counts and who\'s doesn\'t.
At least when I was in the CCIW, NCC had around 50 runners out for the men\'s XC team. (A current look shows 42 men on NCC\'s current roster
http://northcentralcardinals.com/roster.aspx?path=mcross
) This is a very different training environment from 12.5 shared scholarships and some financial aid \"counting\" as athletic scholarships.
Obviously, a dozen runners at 6:00 pace won\'t affect scoring, but it allows a community to build, cream to rise to the top, and marginal talent to get an aerobic base in and become excellent talent.
If you believe that runners can be made, not born, this is a definite D3 advantage. The right D3 program can manufacture quality runners in a way a D1 program can\'t. If you believe genes trump training, it doesn\'t matter.
Koppenberg wrote:
Thinking about how D3 recruiting is different than D1, there's another "advantage" that schools like NCC have. There's no 12.5 limit or worrying about who's financial aid package counts and who's doesn't.
At least when I was in the CCIW, NCC had around 50 runners out for the men's XC team. (A current look shows 42 men on NCC's current roster
http://northcentralcardinals.com/roster.aspx?path=mcross) This is a very different training environment from 12.5 shared scholarships and some financial aid "counting" as athletic scholarships.
Obviously, a dozen runners at 6:00 pace won't affect scoring, but it allows a community to build, cream to rise to the top, and marginal talent to get an aerobic base in and become excellent talent.
If you believe that runners can be made, not born, this is a definite D3 advantage. The right D3 program can manufacture quality runners in a way a D1 program can't. If you believe genes trump training, it doesn't matter.
I disagree with this argument- because every D1 has the exact same opportunity. Just because they only have 12.5 shared scholarships to give doesn't meet more kids can't come to the program and walk on (Colorado for example). EVERY kid on NCC's team is a "walk on". Every D1 has the ability to recruit kids to come without scholarships, thats how D3 teams do it.
\"Every D1 has the exact same opportunity\"
except they don\'t.
There are two things that limit, especially for men\'s XC D1 schools ability to let walk-on athletes on the team.
The first is financial aid \"counting\" rules. Some walk-ons\' financial aid award amount will count against the 12.5 shared scholarship limit for men. (See rule 15.02.3
http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4355-2014-2015-ncaa-division-i-manual-august-version.aspx
)It\'s such a PITA to do the math for compliance that often the safest thing is to just say no to walk-ons. (An advantage that schools like Oregon have w/ transfers and \"walk-ons\" is that they can pay for compliance staff to do this accounting properly.)
The second is Title IX related. Some schools aren\'t willing to fully invest in womens\' sport, so they comply with Title IX rules by limiting male sport roster spots to maintain gender balance. Because football rosters are so huge and there\'s no womens\' football teams, non-revenue sports like XC are limited to make sure gender balance is in compliance.
There is no region where they would qualify. All regions are pretty good through two teams then the rest of the spots get taken by very good teams so there is no chance they would qualify in D1.
Exactly, my D1 team was allowed 14 guys on the roster. Much different then the 40-50 guys many of the D3 programs have. Look at some of the WIAC schools and you will see these numbers. This is a huge advantage to the D3 schools but the year in and year out talent on the top D1 teams trumps this.
I guess you can compare it to York High School in Elmhurst. There advantage is that they get 100 guys out for XC yearly so the cream rises as they train. The D1 schools can recruit around the country instead of just a community (Elmhurst) therefore they can crush it on talent.
I actually don't know what the heck i'm saying now...
two line gradebook wrote:
d2- would podium. D1 is overrated. Look how adams beat the ncaa champs colorado a few years ago
d3- depends on the year.. I think one year SUNY Cortland beat a ton of teams that made the big dance and was a point behind villanova who was a top 20 team. That north central team too a few years ago could have been top 15.
This is just totally not true. I coached at 10 years for Cornell. At Cornell, we never made NCAAs. We also never lost to Cortland.
Cortland never came close to beating a full strength villanova squad either.
I'd say the top D3 team woul be about 50th best d1 team.
So maybe in history could the best d3 team ever make d1 nats? Maybe.
However, you probably had a club team to draw from, most d1 colleges do
Traper Keeper Express wrote:
Exactly, my D1 team was allowed 14 guys on the roster. Much different then the 40-50 guys many of the D3 programs have. Look at some of the WIAC schools and you will see these numbers. This is a huge advantage to the D3 schools but the year in and year out talent on the top D1 teams trumps this.
Per WIAC conference rules, mens teams are only allowed to carry 24 runners.