Renato Canova: Daniele Meucci Training

Ventolin, you many times are right, and your analysis are very deep. It's clear you have long experience and good clue about middle distances (may be also about other athletics event, since I read your comment about other events, sometimes).

However, you pretend to have ALWAYS reason, also when you don't know exactly the reality.

I never was the personal coach of Baldini, but I worked with his coach every day, for 20 years, and I know everything about Baldini, his shape, his test, his life (not only athletics). If I say he was able running, in his Athens shape, under the current WR, is because I know all his parameters, while you stay only at his previous results in London, Marathon that Stefano ran at 80% of his shape, because Always David Bedford was interested to have the best European runner at the start.

When I speak about Lopes, is because I PERFECTLY know what Lopes did in his training, not from some book, but from himself, and from his coach Moniz Pereira.

What you can know about Lopes is what you saw in TV, or what you read in some article from some journalist who had to write a short "resume" about his technical strategy, because never there is something really technically true in the article in some newspaper.

When I speak about Ayele Abshero, and I explained he moved to Marathon because had problems with a hamstring not still solved, I speak about something I know, because the person following him (who is his Brother Tessema Abshero) gives me reports of EVERY SESSION, every day, and we have frequent controlls in Europe about his physical conditions.

Of course I don't have the exclusive of the Marathon in the World ; but give me credit that I can know some particular regarding athletes working with me, or in any case in continuous contact with me, that you don't know. And, when we speak about kenyan and ethiopian, probably I know some "internal and individual" reason of their performances that nothing have to do with training or tactic of competitions, but can explain many results better than every mathematic calculation.

In the Faraggiana - Gigliotti test, we can see two clear differences between the test with one "classic" Marathon runner and a "turbo-diesel" runner :

1) The test for classic Marathon runners shows a continuos increase of the values of lactate (and of HR), with the increase of the speed of every 2000m. With these athletes, it's very difficult to find a "zone" of steady pace inside two or more different speeds.

In some next post, I can give you the example of many tests of Gelindo Bordin, which show a "mathematic" trend, with the increase of speed for every 2000m.

In other words, everytime the athlete run faster (we use difference, for every step, of 2.5 per km), his lactate level is higher.

Instead, with "turbo-diesel", we can identify a "zone" of speed where the lactate level is even, also when we increase the speed (for example, 2 mml running at 6'05", but also in 6' and in 5'55"). This means for this type of athletes, running at 2'57" or at 3'03" per km is the same level of effort for their body.

But it's interesting to see that also the "turbo-diesel", at the beginning of their preparation (the fundamental period), have the same reaction of the normal diesel : increasing the speed (also of 2.5 only) their lactate becomes higher.

This means that is not the typology of the athlete giving this type of results, but is the type of training, and is the reason because we speak about different methodology compared with the past.

2) In the "turbo-diesel" normally the athletes are able to reach a high peak of lactate during the last 1200m, run at max personal speed. This was not true with the classic preparation.

About Baldini, he has test as normal "diesel" for all his life, till 2004, when his results were like "turbo-diesel", and was possible to individuate a "zone" of steady state between 3'03" and 2'57", which never before existed.

That's the reason because we were very confident about his results in Athens.

(earlier post from Renato canova about this same subject)

I want to give some information about what can happen in an athlete of top level. I'm speaking about Stefano Baldini.

We use a test (Faraggiana-Gigliotti) consisting in 6 x 2000 even pace in crescent times, covering every possibility of marathon pace. For example, for Baldini, 6:15 - 6:10 - 6:05 - 6:00 - 5:55 - 5:50, with recovery time very short (only what we need for taking blood from the ear). After the last, we use 1200m free, at max speed, for controlling the level of lactate that the athlete can reach.

Every 2000m is at even pace, using an "acustic rabbit", able to send a beep every 25m (we have cones every 25m on the track) at the programmed speed.

In this way, using always the same speeds, we can test the improvement of the athlete in his SPECIFIC MARATHON ENDURANCE, that is clear when, for the same speed, the level of lactate is lower.

As Marathon is a problem of fuel, and we have to reduce the consumption of glycogen at marathon pace in order to last longer, when the lactate is lower, the athlete is more RESISTANT AT HIS MARATHON PACE.

We use this type of test about every 4 weeks, normally 4 times during the preparation of the race (last time about 10 days before the race).

Till 5 years ago, we didn't use the last test of 1200m. We added this distance in order to investigate how much glycogen the athlete had yet in his tank. HIGHER IS THE LEVEL OF LACTATE, MORE RESERVES THERE ARE IN THE TANK.

We use this test with all the best marathon runners that we follow.

Very interesting thing is to see, in longitudinal way, what happens with an athlete that, in 5 years, is able to improve his time of 3-5 minutes.

About Baldini, for example, when he ran his first Marathon in 1995 (2:11 in Venice), he had a steady state around 2 mmol/l (where physiologists normally say that there is the Aerobic Threshold). At that time, he did 6x2000 from 6:20 to 6:00, having lactates of :

1.7 (6:20) - 1.9 (6:15) - 2.0 (6:10) - 3.2 (6:05) - 4.4 (6:00).

His average in the race was 3:06 /km, that is around 2 mmol.

In 1996, Baldini won World Half Marathon Championships, after working for about two months for improving his AnT. At that time, he was able running at 2:53 pace having 4.2 mmol (and was his HM pace).

He spent 45 days in preparing NY Marathon, but was not able to individuate to speeds very close, where having a personal steady-state. His values were :

1.7 (6:15) - 2.1 (6:10) - 2.5 (6:05) - 3.4 (6:00) - 4.3 (5:55) - 5.6 (5:50).

In the race, he dropped out after 27 km, nervously empty.

He spent all winter in preparing London Marathon '97, and his last test was very different :

1.6 (6:15) - 1.9 (6:10) - 2.0 (6:05) - 2.1 (6:00) - 3.2 (5:55) - 4.8 (5:50) - 7.3 (3:21 on 1200m)

So, it was possible to identify a special Aerobic Threshold from 3:05 to 3:00, without variations of lactate. He was able running 2:07:57.

During the last period, he became more "marathoner". His best shape was this year, in London, when he was 2nd in 2:07:56 overtaken by Abera only during last 5 meters.

He was able running about 2:06, and only the tactic of the race didn't permit to run so fast. Instead, during World Championships, his shape was not the same.

Before London, the last test had these results :

1.5 (6:15) - 2.0 (6:10) - 2.5 (6:05) - 2.4 (6:00) - 2.6 (5:55) - 4.5 (5:50) - 8.6 (3:15 on 1200m).

In this case, is possible to identify a special Aerobic Threshold from 3:02.5 to 2:57.5, but the level of lactate is no more 2 mmol, but about 2.5.

If the lactate level is higher, is because the athlete is using more glycogen at that speed. But, if his endurance for marathon is OK, and the size of his tank is the same of 4 years before, this is possible only because he is able to use a higher percentage of the lactate that he can produce running, so is clear that there is a "shuttle" effect, only after some year of specific training.

So, we can say that "fibres must learn to use their lactate for improving their aerobic capacity", like a "turbo" for an engine of a car.

I think that this attitude, naturally, is the big difference between african and white runners. The AnT in kenyans is very higher than in a European runner, and they are able to use their lactate for producing energy in a higher percentage than european runners.

I don't know exactly all the list of athletes participating to Conconi's project, but about many of them I'm sure if they were IN or OUT the project.

ATHLETES USING AUTO-TRANSFUSION (1978-1985)

Giuseppe Gerbi, Vittorio Fontanella, Antonio Selvaggio, Piero Selvaggio, Mariano Scartezzini, Alberto Cova, Gabriella Dorio, Salvatore Antibo

ATHLETES REFUSING

Gelindo Bordin, Stefano Mei, Francesco Panetta, Claudio Patrignani, Donato Sabia, Maria Curatolo, Marco Marchei, Franco Fava, Alessandro Lambruschini, Giuliana Salce

ATHLETES USING ONE TIME ONLY, AND AFTER REFUSING

Maurizio Damilano, Massimo Magnani

ATHLETES I DON'T KNOW

Venanzio Ortis, Gianni Poli (in any case, not with Conconi, because was in the Group of dr. Rosa), Orlando Pizzolato, Emma Scaunich, Rita Marchisio, Ileana Salvador

Two important points to precise :

1) I don't agree to call the practice "blood doping", since at that time was legal. I can call "blood manipulation", and was the same "scientific" support identified by Finnish scientists in the period 1970-1985 (Vaatainen, Paivarinta, Maaninka, Vasala, and I don't put in the list Viren because he Always said never used this practice). So, all these athletes were not "dopers", exactly like now we can't call dopers athletes using creatine that is legal.

Because "doping" is something dynamic, not static, and what is allowed today can be doping Tomorrow, I don't consider "morally" different athletes looking at some currently legal supplement, and athletes taking some illegal substance, since they look for the same goal.

That's the reason becase I want athletes looking at training only, not at any external support (I don't care if legal or illegal).

2) After 1985, nobody continued this practice (also in hidden way, like cyclists did). So, for example, Antibo never took any type of substance, and was able to improve dramatically.

The next generation of top Italian champion was completely clean :

Genny Di Napoli, Andrea Benvenuti, Beppe D'Urso, Elisabetta Perrone, Maria Guida, Ornella Ferrara, Maura Viceconte, Vincenzo Modica, Danilo Goffi, Giacomo Leone, Christian Leuprecht, Francesco Bennici and, of course, Stefano Baldini and now Daniele Meucci, Andrea Lalli and Valeria Straneo.

( more earlier Renato´s stuff about the same subject)

In our tests before Marathon, for example, after running 6 times 2000m with acustic rabbit for being sure that the speed is even, increasing speed every time, taking blood for controlling lactate finding the SS (Steady-State), (after that) we go for 1 x 1200 at max speed, and the shape is very good when, having a very low lactate in 2000m, the athlete is able to make high lactate during 1200m. This means that he is able to have little consumption of glycogen at the speed of the Marathon, but has yet the capacity to use his glycogen reserves in case of necessity. I name this quality "Glycolitic Recall Capacity" (it's like the capacity of a car to accelerate in very short time from the speed of 120 km/h to a speed of 180, being in 5th gear). For example, BALDINI (that is coached by GIGLIOTTI, not by me) made the last test 5 days before Athens, in Italy, using 6 x 2000m in 6:15 - 6:10 - 6:05 - 6:00 - 5:55 - 5:50, and his lactate didn't change so much (respectively from 1.8 mmol to 2.3 mmol, this one the same for 6:00 - 5:55 - 5:50). If you find the same level of lactate at different speeds, THIS IS YOUR AT. After this, he went for 1200m in 3:12, reaching 9.8 mmol. That's the reason because his finish was incredible : 14:12 between 35-40 km, but expecially 6:06 the last 2.195m (that means 5:30 for the last 2 km !).

Believe me, forget for top runners conventional numbers. But is important to think that a coach MUST BUILD the aerobic house of the athlete, not only using what he was able to have for genetical reasons or for his natural activity when very young.

I'm sure that also American and European people of 40 years ago could have different values, when the normal life was full of physical activity in direction of every type of resistance, when they were children.

Today, we are talking about a generation looking at every other type of acitivity, except the resistance and the endurance.

(...)

how many times between baldini test?

(Renato answer)

The rest among every test is only the time that you need for taking blood from the ear (normally from 45.0 to 1 min), the same after the last 2000m before 1200m. We need continuity in this type of test, because we have to investigate what can happen running long time at an even pace well precised before, so the ideal test could be running without stopping the action, but in this case is not possible to take blood.

(...)

In the shape of Athens, Stefano could run a time like the World Record of Tergat, finding the same conditions. You must consider that always he had his main focus in summer Championships : European 1998 (winner), World Championships 2001 (bronze), 2003 (bronze) and 2005 (retired), Olympic Games 2000 (retired, he had physical problems during the period 1999-2000 in his back) and 2004 (winner). This means that NEVER he ran a spring Marathon (London, normally) at 100% of his shape, but only at 85%. If we look at his first London in 1997 (2:07:57), in 2004 he was really a lot stronger. And, of course, never was in a shape better than 75-80% in the Autumn Marathon.

Lucio Gigliotti has all his lactate test, and really before Athens he had a steady state at 2.3 mmol at 2:56 per km, meaning 2:04:20 about. I have no doubt that he could run this time in a race like Berlin (the year of Tergat), but I don't think that this could be the best performance ever, because, for me, the victory of Felik Limo in Rotterdam his first year (2:06:19) with a real storm, a lot of rain, wind against for all the race a very cold, is the strongest marathon ever run.

Now the shape of Baldini is again 80%. His recovery is slower than some year ago, and for that reason he still didn't decide if running WCh or not. A competition with 30-35 degrees and 90% of humidity (as in Osaka) could have a too high cost in terms of recovery. Personally, I think that the most part of top runners looking for Olympics don't want to compete in Osaka, for this reason. And only, the current time table (start at 8:00 am) is something dangerous. The Japanese doctor in Mombasa went to officials of IAAF, asking to change the start to 6:00 o'clock, because, he said, if is at 8, no more than 8 athletes go to finish the race !

Thanks, Renato, exactly what I was looking for. Also, great information about Nicholas Kemboi and others.

What is the shortest race where training to create an extended steady-state zone is useful? Would it be 3000m?

I know you used to lecture with Peter Thompson. Some of the workouts to create the "turbo-diesel" seem to resemble what Thompson calls "new interval training" on his website of the same name. Are those workouts useful for 1500m, 800m, and 400m runners as well as for longer distances?

Renato, if possible would you be able to post the preparation phase of Shaheen from 2004 or 2006? I know you posted his specific phase from 2006 but I would appreciate very much if you could post the winter and spring training of a top athlete.

your premise that baldini was in assumed < 2"04'55 shape fails

- he was 33y in athens & had ran in plenty of championships

it's virtually inconceivable he couda gone from 2"08+ in london & in a few weeks was at wr shape at such an advanced age

you then ignore the opposition :

- if the brazilian hadn't been mugged, he wouda been right up there with baldini

he may even have won !

either way, it's highly doubtful he was any worse than 15 - 30s worse than badini that day

that makes him a 2"05-low guy that day

his best M in '04 was 2"09'39 & his pb was 2"08'31 from '98

there is no way in hell lima was in 2"05-low shape in his life & that detracts from baldini's proposed 2"04++

more back up against your proposed 2"04++ :

meb finished 34s behind baldini in 2"11'29, worth maybe ~ 1'00s slower if it had been fast from gun-to-tape

that gives meb ~ 2"05-high shape in athens

that is nonsense

meb was no better than a 2"09/2"10 guy in the years around '04

the margin of victory baldini had & the ability of the guys he beat indicates in no way a 2"04++ guy

according to you, that was the next decade when you talked to lopes

that hardly qualifies you to know intimately his training back in '85

& just because lopes didn't follow your training regime does't magically mean he wouda taken 3"00 of the wr he set which was nearly 1'00 faster than the previous wr

you ignore that if we have a serious, at-limit track 10k time, in this case ~ 27'15, we have a limiting factor for M potential

for lopes, that was 2"06-flat, which tallies well with 2"07-low wr of your supposed sub-optimal training for him

lopes 10k ability even though it was nearly the wr back then woud severely limit his potential M ability & with 27'15, you are not going to get any better than ~ 2"06-flat

but you keep forgetting

the best predictor of race times are another race time, especially if it was recent & flat-out

lopes as an ole man in '84 with ~ 27'15 was never going to find any huge improvement in 10k speed & that already gives us a likely limit for his M potential

does this extend to prior to dubai M '12 when nobody had heard of him apart from brief spike of interest when he ran 13'12 at 18y ?

no

the only big stumbling block to predicting these guys times is hat they do all their training at altitude & people strongly disagree what the values of these are at sea-level where all the big races are run

the epic 10k in nairobi of '10 won by wilson in < 27'30 with geoffrey close behind according to NCAA altitude application + use of wind/altitude calculator indicates

~ 26'35/26'40

which many argue over

the only big mystery is that there is difficulty with what the africans times are worth at sea-level

if there was a solid agreement on that, predicting their best possible times mathematically is not difficult

Renato Canova wrote:

Someody can be surprised when I say he could run in Berlin, with the shape of Olympic Games, under the WR and very close 2:04. But when ye prepare in SPECIFIC way the Marathon, with 27'20" / 27'30" you can run under 2:04:00, if you have that type of talent (which is also mental, not only physical, and under this point of view Baldini was very strong, of course very much more than Tergat, for example).

Some example ? Tsegaye Kebede, he absolutely is not able running 10000m faster than 27'30", and everybody can see his results, his victories and his continuity. Also Patrick Makau and Wilson Kipsang could have a value around 27'15" in a fast 10000m race, absolutely not better,

ventolin needs to let this information sink in ans adjust his algorithms accordingly

he believes all top marathoners are in 26-30 shape which is frankly ridiculous

insider42195 wrote:

You said in another thread that Antibo used blood doping, so he probably could be part of the list too.

Can you give us a definitive list of people participating to Conconi's projects and people who refused it?

Could you confirm the fact that Cova wasn't a great talent, at least not as great as Mei?

What about Pizzolato and Poli? Were they also in the list?

viren wasn't a great talent either

blood doping got him 4 olympic golds

so we know that blood doping works just fine for 10000m in the 70s and 80s

the unsolved mystery is what was going on in the 90s with EPO

did the blood doping tradition continue with geb and bekele?

Ventolin, I normally appreciate your analysis of “what could be if…”, because, when you look at a full career, numbers have heavy weight.

But sometimes you want to manipulate data for giving reason to some theory, and this can happen in two opposite ways, depending on the thesis you want to follow.

About Baldini and the marathon, you are exactly in this situation.

You look at the final time of Baldini (who was able to finish the last 5 km in 14:12 in Athens) and at the gap with the other compeytitors, for deciding his shape was not good as I said.

Why when we speak about Mo Farah, and his chronometrical possibilities for 5000m and 10000m, you don’t look at his winning times, but you go for a complicated calculation ? You understand that, in top Championships (OG or WCH), the priority is winning, is you can ?

Baldini in Athens wanted ONLY to win. He remained very tranquil in the group, moving only after the top of the hill, after understanding all the athletes in his group were not a factor.

Vandelei Lima used a very smart tactic, hoping nobody of the “big” wanted to be the first to catch him.

This tactic, for example, was the winning choice of Constantina Dita in Beijing (or you think Constantina was the strongest in all the field ?). And, about the age of Baldini (33), he was in any case 2 years younger than Tergat, and 5 years younger than Dita…

Now, I want to use your same system, in opposite way.

In London 2012, Wilson Kipsang ran 2:09:37, losing from Stephen Kiprotich for 1:36. If Wilson, at that time (you say that the best test is the last competition) able winning London in 2:04:44, ran almost 5:00 slower, can this mean that Stephen Kiprotiche could run 2:03:00 ?

And, for ladies, if Mary Keitany (winning London in 2:18:37) in OG ran 5:19 slower, can this mean that Arkhipova (bronze medal running 27.0 faster than Mary) could run 2:18:10 ?

The reality is that is almost impossible to be at 100% of shape, if you PREPARE some big marathon in spring (especially one of the Majors). So, the best athletes have to chose their main goal : London, Boston or the Championships competition ?

I give you some data for men and women, competing in London and in OG, in the last two Olympic Games :

Beijing 2008-----------------------------------------------London (or other Marathon) 2008

Wanjiru----------------1----2:06:32----------------------2:05:24--------------(-1:08)

Gharib------------------2----2:07:16---------no marathon before OG

Kebede-----------------3----2:10:00----------------------2:06:40 (Paris)---(-3:20)

D. Merga---------------4----2:10:21----------------------2:06:38--------------(-3:43)

Lel-----------------------5----2:10:24-----------------------2:05:15--------------(-5:09)

Goumri-----------------------DNF---------------------------2:05:30

Hall--------------------------- 2:12:33-----------------------2:06:17--------------(-6:16)

Dita---------------------1----2:26:44------------------------2:27:45--------------(-1:01)

Ndereba---------------2----2:27:06----------no marathon before OG

Zhou--------------------3----2:27:07------------------------2:37:49 (20.04 Beijing) as training

Zhu----------------------4----2:27:16------------------------2:37:49 (20.04 Beijing) as training

Komu-------------------5----2:27:23-------------------------2:25:33 (Paris)----(-1:50)

Yamauchi--------------6----2:27:29-------------------------2:46:58 (20.04 Beijing) as training

Selina Kosgei---------------2:29:28-------------------------2:26:30--------------(-2:58)

London OG 2012--------------------------------------London (or other marathon)

S. Kiprotich-------------1----2:08:01------------------------2:07:50 (Tokyo, 20.02)

A. Kirui------------------2----2:08:27-------------------------2:07:56---------------(-0.31)

W. Kipsang-------------3----2:09:37-------------------------2:04:44---------------(-4:53)

Keflezighi---------------4----2:11:06-------------------------2:09:08 (Houston, 14.01) (-1:58)

Dos Santos-------------5----2:11:10-------------------------2:08:03----------------(-3:07)

Nakamoto--------------6----2:11:16-------------------------2:08:53 (Lake Biwa, 4.03) (-2:23)

Nyasango---------------7----2:12:08--------------no marathon before OG

E. Mutai-----------------------2:14:49-------------------------2:08:01----------------(-6:48)

Rothlin-------------------------2:12:48-------------------------2:08:32 (Tokyo, 26.02) (-4:16)

Tiki Gelana--------------1----2:23:07--------------------------2:18:58 (Rotterdam) (+4:09)

Priscah Jeptoo----------2----2:23:12--------------------------2:20:14---------------(-2:58)

Arkhipova---------------3----2:23:29---------------------------2:26:46 (Tokyo, 26.02) (+3:17)

Keitany-------------------4----2:23:56---------------------------2:18:37---------------(-5:19)

T. Gamera---------------5----2:24:32---------------------------2:24:46 (Osaka, 26.01) (+0:14)

Zhu------------------------6----2:24:48---------------------------2:24:19 (Chongqin, 17.03) (-0.29)

Flanagan-----------------------2:25:51---------------------------2:25:38 (Houston, 14.01) (-0.13)

Goucher------------------------2:26:07---------------------------2:26:05 (Houston, 14.01) (+0.02)

Edna Kiplagat-----------------2:27:52---------------------------2:19:50----------------(-8:02)

Mare Dibaba------------------2:28:48---------------------------2:19:52 (Dubai, 01)

From these data, it’s very simple to understand that, if you want to be competitive at your best in the Summer Championships, you have only two choices :

1) Not running any marathon after the end of February

2) Running some important marathon at 80% of shape, as part of a strategy without hard specific workouts

The athletes more penalized by this situation are, without any doubt, Kenyan and Ethiopian, also if with different systems of selection.

A Kenyan can’t be at 80% of shape in Spring if wants to be selected. The field is so full of top class athletes, that everybody needs to be at 105% of his shape for going in the team. For example, the two best athletes 2011 (Geoffrey Mutai winning Boston and NY, and Patrick Makau bettering the WR) were not selected because not in shape in London. This means Kenyan needs to have a lot of specific workouts before April, and have to use a lot of nervous energy for the preparation and for the competition. The recovery after a marathon is not, normally, a physical problem, but a nervous problem.

In the case of 2012, I personally faced great difficulties for trying to recover the full shape of Wilson Kipsang and Abel Kirui, and succeeded only partially.

The fact Wanjiru was able to win in Beijing in that way, after running London, gives him a place at the top of the list of marathon GOATS, till now.

Tiki Gelana was able winning after running the Ethiopian Record in Rotterdam, but the situation was completely different. She knew had to run in 2:20:00 for being selected (Ethiopian looked at the best times), and the race was organized for that target, with male pacers since the start in Rotterdam includes men and women together.

I repeat : Baldini NEVER was in top shape in London, apart the first year (1997) when lost for a mistake of experience, waiting the final sprint with Thugwane without creating a gap before the last 2 km (he was very much fresher and stronger than the Olympic Champion). They run the last 2 km in 3:09 and 3:11, looking one the other preparing the final sprint, and didn’t see Pinto closing the gap in the last 200m, and overtaking them ad high speed. The reaction of Baldini in the last 50m was good for losing for less than one meter, but he was 2nd and not the winner.

It’s not possible to compare Baldini 1997 with Baldini 2004. He was really very much stronger, and who watch the competition in TV without staying “inside” the Marathon World can’t make any balanced comment, looking at some result only (Ventolin, if you have the possibility to win OG and/or WCh, and you know can’t be prepared for running London at your top, but the organizer gives you some appearance between 150 and 300,000 Euros, which is your choice ? Refusing this money, or preparing the race for having a participation with dignity, and earn this money ?).

Ventolin

I think that what you do is: you run your calculation, and when the result doesn´t fit with the reality, you just pick a few part of the reality, often just one or two facts out of the overview of the runner profile or training profile, that fits into your calculation. So, according your arguments to justify something, it´s not your calculation that is right, it´s the reality that is wrong always !

Let´s see about Carlos Lopes. Renato Canova is absolutely right in all he said about Carlos Lopes. But I know Lopes, I watch him training alive, i´m still in contact with him actually. Renato is right about his kind of training and temper: no sensible periodisation, daily training by feeling – but fast, sometimes 18 up to 19k in one hour – doing specific intervals all season on, every week on interval training, with the supervision of Mario Moniz Pereira, and very strong motivation and eager to win, fantastic mentality.

But you think he couldn´t done better than what he did 2h07:12. You say this because you are an ignorant about Carlos Lopes running career. To prove that i´m right, please answer to this questions.

1/who was the only runner in the world that was World Cross Country Champion for the first time (1976) and for the last time 9 years later (1985) ? Who in the world did that, Bekele ? Wrong. Paul Tergat ? Wrong. Who else. No one except Carlos Lopes. Meanwhile during the period of 1976 (first win) and 1985 (last win) he did win on another occasion (1984) and twice second (1977 and 1983 editions).

2/ Who was the runner that did win the world cross country with older age ? Carlos Lopes, 38 years old.

3/Who Who was the runner that took the marathon world record with older age ? Carlos Lopes, 38 years old.

4/who was the all time unique runner that did win the Olympic Games, the World Cross country Champ (3 times by the way) and that did break the marathon world record ? Carlos Lopes

5/who do you know that did win one Olympic medal in distance events (silver in 10000m in the 76 Montreal Olympics) and 12 years later (1984 Olympics) wins another medal (gold in the marathon of the LA 1984 Olympics) ? Carlos Lopes.

6/who is the runner that you can name that in the same season (4 months distant really) wins the word cross country Champ and did win the Olympic marathon and during that 4 month period breaks the 10000m earlier world record ? Carlos Lopes.

I don´t need to continue. This is just to make you understand that such a runner as Lopes did, a long career, with such a high tuff competitive schedule, being a polyvalent distance runner – cross, road, track – several target distance events, several kind of run surfaces – he couldn´t focused in the marathon event exclusively.

Do you really think that Lopes, like in 1985 season , with 38 years old, one day of Mars 24th 1985 wins the world cross country champ, smashing all the adversaries from Africans to Europeans to whatever continent or citizenship, and JUST 27 DAYS AFTER WINS THE WORLD CROSS COUNTRY CHAMPS, the April 20th 1985, HE BREAKS MARATHON WORLD RECORD in 2h07m12s, in a solo run (no pacers), do you think that he couldn´t have done better if he just dedicate one season to just train to the marathon target ?

In fact, at his peak moment of his career, he could win to whatever runner very easily in the marathon, because he was so superior to everyone else. Just See the LA Olympic marathon. In Mars 25th 1984 in NY with 37 years old he did win the WCCChamp. In June 2nd 1984, 3 months later in Stockholm he beats the 10000m earlier record (from Henry Rono). Simply Fernando Mamede his teammate did win that one ion 27:13 and was the new 10000m record. There, HE DID 2 MONTHS and 10 days to train and prepare the Los Angeles Olympic marathon. I repeat. After train until mars 25th to be ready for the WCCChamp that he wined, he got 3 months for the 10000m world record attempt, that he broke the Henry Rono 1000m WR. Then he had 2 months and 10 days to prepare the Olympic marathon, with the kind of training that the marathon demands that is quite different to the 10000m training. Meanwhile Carlos Lopes was crashed by a car a few weeks after Olympic marathon and needed to resume his training, but there in Los Angeles, early August, hot weather, high percent of humidity he did 2:09:21, he did win easily all ten world´s best and he didn´t run faster because it was not necessary, he took the lead where and when he wanted, as he wished.

Then after wined the LA olympic marathon, he was 2nd in the 1984 Chicago marathon 2 months later after the Olympics.

Do you really think that Lopes, with all his commitments, engaged in cross, track and road he couldn´t have done better in the marathon if he wanted a high specialization in the marathon event ? Besides Carlos Lopes didn´t care about chrono results, but just runs and trains for place classifications. He used to say “my records are to someone else to take it, but my wins, no one can´t take that out of me”.

Don´t you understand that Lopes winning so many runs, being in several kind of events so superior to the other runners from that period, he hadn´t no major interest in training seriously to put the marathon world record in a time that was surreal for that period. Also you need to know that he pefers cross to the marathon.

But in fact, someone like Renato Canova or myself, that we know Carlos Lopes training, his run career, his competitive schedule, his metal attitude of “instinct killer”, we know quite sure that Lopes marathon potential, this days, would be at the world top today, what mans a potential to perform 2h04m, anyhow much better that just 2h07:12, and much better that the result of your calculation.

I did not start this thread so you could go on your numerical crusade. I asked for Mr Canova's insight into Meucci and pondered did he follow the Italian school of training. Also in a healthy debate why do you feel the need to call everyone who disagrees with your hypothesis an idiot or moron or some other crass title. It shows a lack of intelligence, humility and diplomacy. As the threads OP I am banning you until you show some respect for your fellow posters.

Ventolin, English is not my first Language, perhaps it's difficult to understand what I write, but I strongly doubt you don't care about any type of explanation, apart numbers, and refuse to understand what you don't want to understand.

1) I explained several times : recovery after Marathon DOESN'T DEPEND ON THE COMPETITION, BUT ON THE NERVOUS ENERGIES ATHLETES USED DURING THE PREPARATION AND THE RACE.

If the recovery is only connected with the physical effort, it was not possible for Wilson Kipsang running (in training, at 2300m of altitude on rough road hilly and with the surface not completely flat) 40 km in 2:03:32 one wonth before his WR in Berlin (which is the equivalent of a Marathon in 2:06 in the same conditions).

The problem in London, for all Kenyan who have their selection in that Marathon, is how much they have to spend in their preparation, especially under nervous point of view, and how much is the NERVOUS cost of the competition.

For that reason, AFTER London they are not able to recover in short time the total mental efficiency.

Preparing a Marathon for winning Olympics is not only to put one session after another session, but to face a lot of moments with some small problem, and in spite of this to maintain the same level of self confidence and of continuity.

For that reason, the fact Tiki Gelana ran 2:18:58 in Rotterdam doesn't make my analysis wrong, but can give more strength to what I explain.

Rotterdam was not a real competition, but a "time-trial". Second in the race was Valeria Straneo, 5 minutes behind, and the only goal of Tiki was to run fast, helped by some male pacer.

That's exactly the same reason because I never put in the list of favourites for OG 2000, in some interview I had from different newspapers, the name of Tegla Loroupe, at that time WR holder. ALL the journalists told me "You forgot Loroupe", and I answered "no, I didn't forget, but Loroupe NEVER had experience in open competition. Her last two WR (Rotterdam and Berlin) were time-trials, without any real pressure about the position in the race, with the only task to stay in the middle of the pack of male running for her. Olympics is another story".

But Tiki had already experiences in only women competitions, and, different from Tegla, could have the ability and the personality to manage a race for only women.

2) The list of results of the top athletes running London Marathon in April, before the Summer Championships, CLEARLY SHOW NOT POSSIBLE TO BE COMPETITIVE AFTER 3-4 MONTHS FOR WINNING A MEDAL IN OLYMPICS OR WCh.

Your suppositions don't have any value. FACTS are very clear and confirm that, if you want to try to win OG, you CAN'T RUN LONDON at your max level using a perfect technical strategy in your preparation. It's enough to read these data, without looking at a lot of results in different competitions between one athlete and the other.

Your idea about Evans Rutto, for example, is fruit of a total ignorance of the kenyan reality in Marathon during those years. Athelets like him and Felix Limo ALWAYS looked at 100% of their shape for London (or in any case Rotterdam), because there they had the best opportunities to earn money with prizes and appearance.

3) In the same shape of London Olympics, Abel could run in Berlin about 2:06, and Wilson about 2:07. There real level, before London (also for Abel, who 10 days before London had stomach problems for some bacteria), was very much higher.

4) Ridiculous is to think Mary Keitany was one of th worst top athletes, when not rabbited. Do you know that during the London victory before Olympics she went alone for the second half, running under 1:08 (so using negative split of almost 3:00) ? Do you think this is a type of competition where the rabbits were a real factor ?

The situation is very much more simple : SHE WAS NOT ABLE TO RECOVER HER FULL NERVOUS AND MENTAL ENERGY FOR GOING AGAIN IN THE SAME SHAPE.

I already explained you several times : you look at numbers (not only, also at the IMPRESSION athletes can give), and this is ok.

But I look at something BEFORE numbers, because who produces numbers are MEN and WOMEN, with their problems, their family, their health, their motivation, their training, ALL THINGS YOU DON'T KNOW, BUT ARE THE REASONS BECAUSE THEY CAN PRODUCE THE NUMBERS YOU ANALYSE.

So, you can look at the EFFECTS, I know the CAUSES.

But, if you don't know the causes (and the most times you don't know), all your analysis become a useless hypothetical exercis based on fried air.

known

allowances are made for it, but not excuse for sometime nonsense

no

I have interest in your posts when you stick to hard facts/logic but little interest in 2nd rate psychology & sometimes even neurology which you mention

I have had to read both for my job & even considered neurology as a job, except it offers sh!t $

this is nonsense

what exact long term neuronal depletion are you talking about ?

neurotransmitters recover soon enough after

kenyans psychology is not one of dwelling much on defeat apart from keino to gammoudi in ’68 / vasala in ’72 who he believed cheated him, so this is nonsense

that effort coud be construed as “over-training”

do you think Ugandan put in such a run so soon before games ???

again, meaningless neurology

Kenyans don’t generally dwell on defeats & mental recovery from defeat is usually quick

utter nonsense

baldini ran 2”08+ in London before Athens & the nervous cost of an absolute hammering to rutto/limo musta been immense

I’m sure a psycholgist/neurologist got him 4’00 better in weeks ???!!!

As I said, sammy got controlled by lel in ’04 london & won magnificently in peking

Lel got injured between London/peking but said after he woud help pace sammy to the 1st ever Kenyan gold as he himself had no chance

An uninjured lel wouda given sammy all the trouble he wanted in peking

yes

keep uninjured & not over-train

no

it only gives confidence in running a fast time, but she knew mary wouda been in 2”17+ shape in her London win, so that offers little

this doesn’t strengthen above argument

2”16+ wouda been needed for tiki to supplant mary as games favourite

long time ago

tegla was a runt even as Kenyans go & she seemed to race a lot

not a lotta physical reserve there

you have to have some belief that Kenyans have some mental deficiency if you think they don’t have the brains to know the difference between a paced-run v major ??!!

nonsense

ehh ???

Ethiopians have some mental advantage over Kenyans in Ms ???

nonsense

sammy finished 2nd but won in peking

lel maya won if fit in peking

no

see sammy above

nonsense

the argument is april

tiki ran 2”18 in april & won in august

London win & no later gold is nothing but observation

Anyone who watched London-’08 expected lel to win peking

Explain why you didn’t ???

err…

I saw all the relevant races on satellite

nonsense

you never claimed to be rutto’s coach

rutto was a total animal

he was toughest M’er I have ever seen

a complete brute waiting to pounce on any impala

nonsense

felix was a smooth runner

he destroyed geb in a 15k race to break wr

he was an effortless runner, maybe best ever cadence we have seen for the M

rutto & felix were best M guys on circuit in that era

so you are claiming their “neurology/psychology deficit” lasted ~ 6/12 ???!!!

how about stories of Kenyans forced into training camp back home / different coaches in national camp / england camp 200 miles from London / corrupt officials taking funds in games giving poor rooms/food to them

???

see immediate above

see above+ when I said she had to be in 2”16+ shape

please

I am your friend, even if lukewarm occasionally & don’t need any to read of Kenyans needing anymore

BWANA KUBA

coaches

as yourself

Ethiopia didn’t take on bwana-kubas in '70s/'80s/'90s & did just fine & Ethiopia have not a fraction of kenya’s talent

There is no 1’40+ or 3’26+ in Ethiopia actual

no

never

I look at horseflesh

Stats after

impression is main virtue

err…

so woud anyone before a race

this info is more useful before race than 2y+ later

calm down

see immediate above

everyone sees effects – race efforts

you cannot claim causes

you did not coach rutto/felix/sammy/lel/baldini/etc

offering nonsense like

“nervous”

offers nothing for race 3/12+ later

these Kenyans are top-tier lions

Rutto was toughest man I’ve ever seen run a M

A total brute

Fed woudn’t allow him to take sammy’s place

I told you ramblings of 1/2M / M were very, very good compared to maths equivalence

I added the 10k

You seem to have short-circuited

For an enclosed track :

27’00 = 59’12 = 2”04’57

I have told you before I maya have found the holy grail of

“mathematical tables”

what

1 race distance = another

For eternity

These numbers will never change

Absolute :

find

“Ventolin worksheet”

Are Orlando Pizzolato and Gianni Poli dopers?

Definitely.

what happened to ventolin, is he still alive