HADD'S Approach To Distance Running

Update:

I choked...

I only ran 17:00 (I won the race) died very badly..,

Splits:

5:17 (same as last week)

5:29 (same time as my THIRD MILE LAST WEEK)

5:47 (screw that..)

.35 (aaaarrrgghhh!!)

I had a good pace going but I just died horribly at the last mile. Last week I did 5:17,5:25,5:29.

I did 4 easy miles yesterday, then a few strides that afternoon and I did a better warmup to get my HR going. Why did I run like sh*t then?

My theories:

1.Horrible sleeping habits (going to bed at 11-12 every night all week getting 4-5 hours of sleep)

2.Trained hard this week...

3. Trained hard all week and got lack of sleep, didn't recover well and I screwed myself over by running a race with heavy un-recovered legs/cardiovascular system.

And I had a feeling it would happen, since Wednesday that 30 min tempo at 5:54 pace felt much harder than it needed to feel! And the weather was even NICER today!

I just seem to struggle to hold sub 5:30 pace let along sub 5:20 (I want to break 16 this year!!)

Please help me out here guys!

Please help me out here guys!

Sleep more. Training isn't the only thing you do; it's EVERYTHING you do (or, in this case, everything you're failing to do). You know the equation: training = stress + REST. Lack of zzz's will rear its head like this and not only leave your head groggy, but you entire body too. A decline in performance inevitably follows.

Keep with the aeobic/HR tests, no matter the training you choose to do. You're nowhere near a plateau aerobically and yet you're already piling in races and harder efforts. They'll increase your fitness obviously, but only for a while. You have to measure this via the benchmark tests, not strictly through your races.

I think you have answered your own questions! :) Im also thinking that cumulative stress is something you should track for lets say 2weeks prior to a race.

A few notes about shape, global training volume, perceived effort, sleep, food, health status, race day conditions followed by race results should go a long way in giving you parameters for comparison between results. Multiple such compilations should also make it possible to find out how race results are affected by each parameter.

New plan:

Monday (True speed day, faster than 5k/mile pace, 400/800s or 1200s)

AM: 40 Min Tempo (6:00-6:15 pace)

PM: 2 x (3 x 800m) w200/400m jog 102% 5K pace (2:32-2:36)

2x400m (64-69s) w/3 min standing recovery

6x150m all out w/250m slow walk then 1 mile cool down

Tuesday (long recovery day)

AM: 60 Minutes Easy (135-145 BPM)

PM: rest

Wednesday (tempo/threshold/slows than 5k pace speed work)

AM: 3x3K w/400m jog at 94-95% 5k pace; 10:15-10:25 (5:32-5:38/mi)

PM: rest

Thursday (recovery day)

AM: 30 Min Easy (140-150)

PM: rest

Friday (easy day)

AM: rest

PM: 45 Minutes Easy (140-145) + Strides

Saturday (long run/race day)

AM: Rest (or 5K Race)

PM: 90 Minutes w/45 min at 170-176 (86-88% max HR) IF I DON'T race that morning

If I DO race, then PM 75 minute long run (145-150 HR) instead.

Sunday (off day)

AM: Rest

PM: Rest

Few other things:

Would it be better to do a short 20 minute tempo at 5:39-5:45 pace or a 40 minute tempo at 6:00-6:15 pace? (Followed by afternoon speed work above)

Learned the hard way I was sleeping to late. I went to bed at 12 Thursday night. And so to did my chances of a PR... :)

Big cold front coming down here, temps will be 50s Monday. PERFECT for a long/short fast morning tempo and a hard afternoon workout in the cooler temp/lower dew point.

10x100m /100m jog will be part of the warm up for Monday's speed work (not Wednesday) and 1 1/2 mile jog to warm up before and 1 mile cool down. (For ALL workouts of the week)

Strict bedtime: 9:45 PM (earliest schedule will allow) and I shall adhere to it! I will wake up at 5:30 am every morning. (Do the math, if it took me until 10:00-10:15 to fall asleep, that's over 7 hours of sleep a night!)

Conveniently, Daylight savings is tomorrow, which will help me with my lack of sleep problem, so I'll be getting newly 2 1/2 more hours of sleep a night!

Also, some dietary changes will be in order for me.

I either sacrifice myself getting to bed earlier, or my 5k times get sacrificed. I'll update you all on this week and see if my earlier bedtime and higher sleep levels have any effect on my morning resting HR.

No more goofing around, it's time to get serious!

Seriously,

I won't give you any training advice untill you take your sleeping serious. I and other proposed very good plans, but If you don't sleep you can better do nothing...

I already adviced you wrote:

Seriously,

I won't give you any training advice untill you take your sleeping serious. I and other proposed very good plans, but If you don't sleep you can better do nothing...

Yeah, I've been slacking with my sleeping habits and now it's caught up to me and I learned it the hard way. I imagine worse performances and injuries would be next.

As I said above, starting TODAY I'm making sleep PART of my training

(And will log my bedtimes in addition to temperature, dew point, etc. that I usually log)...

Assuming I'll be getting enough sleep, I will hopefully handle this week's work.

Can't you get more than 7.75 bed hours? I would shoot for more.

Seriously, I won't give you any training advice until you take your sleeping serious.

^^^^ This is important to grasp. You can ask for solid advice, but what good is it if unused? It relates quite similarly to Twain's quote...The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.

The runner seeking advice but yet fails (or refuses) to do everything else in his power to improve has no advantage over the runner who seeks none.

Sleep is one of the biggies too, along with (the run part of) training and nutrition. Don't neglect it.

No more goofing around, it's time to get serious!

But keep that seriousness in perspective. Your running should be fun, if not liberating. With this in mind it may be necessary to ditch the HRM at times and internalize the effort. No watch, no HRM, no GPS...just run and see how far you can go at various levels of perceived exertion, and when fatigue starts to overcome you at these efforts. A HRM/GPS can record all this and so you could still wear these gadgets, but tape over their display(s), to let the devices MONITOR the workout, not dictate it.

Let the improvement spur you on. You learned something here, which is key. Some of us observing may have seen it coming had we known you weren't sleeping, but this is your journey and yours alone. Focus on improving ALL aspects that might affect your improvement. If your diet is crap, work on that too. An increase in good fats can assist in helping your metabolic fitness, especially in the manner you're training; delve into it.

Joggernaut wrote:

With this in mind it may be necessary to ditch the HRM at times and internalize the effort. No watch, no HRM, no GPS...just run and see how far you can go at various levels of perceived exertion, and when fatigue starts to overcome you at these efforts. A HRM/GPS can record all this and so you could still wear these gadgets, but tape over their display(s), to let the devices MONITOR the workout, not dictate it.

Definitely, if I don't get enough sleep, running becomes a chore since I'd rather sleep in than get up and I'd have to force myself to get up (I enjoy the run later though). I get it, I'll fix my sleep for real this time, I'll give it a real chance and see/hope it makes a difference. I really hate coming 1 second from a sub 17 when I should be going SUB 16 (hence the username...)

This is what I do on all my easy runs:

My Garmin 610 has different screens, so one of them has the pace/HR.

For runs, I make sure my HR is in check for 1-3 miles then I switch to a different screen with a finger tap and I just enjoy the rest of my run at whatever pace I feel I can run. Then, I check what pace/HR/distance I ran and log it all into my training log. As long as my average is within a range (like say...140-145, 145-150, 137-142) it's fine.

On speed days, my HR doesn't dictate anything. I don't even see it. I run by pace only, THEN analyze later.

On tempo runs, I have my HR on display, but I use it just for feedback only. I never let it dictate my pace. At least, now, since I can trust myself and heart better.

Earlier back in May/June though, I would let it dictate my pace (I HAD to) but due to the heat/humidity the HR would drift high up. When I would run a certain HR (like 45 min at 155-160) that means over the run, the final AVERAGE has to be 155-160. I would be under 155 for mile 1, then 2 or 3 miles would be 155-160, the last 2 something like 162, 165, and the average would come out to something like 159 bpm.

It worked perfectly and my runs were very enjoyable. It allowed me to keep a consistent (but slower) pace and I would see it get faster and faster almost every day at the same HR.

If I forced myself to stay at 155-160 for the WHOLE run, it would make the run extremely frustrating, because I would have to slow down to keep it in range. Turns out, it's much better to let it drift by NO MORE than 5 beats over the range (155-160, like 165 but no higher), as long as the first 3 miles were under 160 at least.

I have a 75 minute easy long run to do this afternoon in the nice breezy weather, and then dinner, and at 9:30,I'm off to bed! (Day off tomorrow).

If I forced myself to stay at 155-160 for the WHOLE run, it would make the run extremely frustrating, because I would have to slow down to keep it in range. Turns out, it's much better to let it drift by NO MORE than 5 beats over the range (155-160, like 165 but no higher), as long as the first 3 miles were under 160 at least.

This latter point depends on the objective of the workout. HR drift is pretty expected and you have to ask yourself if you're better sticking within a specific HR range or if you're better off sticking with a similar pace, letting the HR do what it will do. I have athletes do one or the other based on "where" they are in their season and/or development. And often times, we remove the monitors and merely run. Focusing "inward" is vital.

As for your first sentence, the frustration is better spent delving into the specifics of the slow down: why and when it really begins to occur; whether it can be mitigated by a slower starting pace/lower avg HR; the effect of the environmental conditions on it; and so forth. I know you're not worried about it at this juncture, as you've made plenty of gains since then, but you might be again one day. Don't neglect your "base."

While common, a slow down in pace at a given HR usually points to a lack of aerobic endurance/stamina (the ability to maintain pace). Whether in training or during races, elites don't fade much, and their HRs don't generally drift too highly. But some "drift"/decoupling is normal (no one can go forever without fatiguing), but the better your "base," the less your pace will slow at a given HR, assuming external conditions are stable from the onset.

Once you know how to quantify your "base" you'll be better prepared to know when to introduce more of an anaerobic structure into your program, or when not to. What we typically witness here on Let's Run are guys who feel they need more "speed" in order to race faster, when in fact they already possess the natural speediness (e.g., sub 60/400m). What they really lack is the ability to SUSTAIN even a moderate percentage of that pace, pointing to their poor endurance and "base." What I see in your case is a guy who...

1) forgot the totality/holism of training (that everything affects everything else) (i.e., sleep!)

2) who may not be sure why certain workouts are taking place...

3) and therefore might reach a plateau (albeit a temporary one) long before he should

And that's OK! You're learning, and that's the key thing. You're not afraid of mistakes and you're not afraid to ask help in correcting them.

Exactly, and I need all the help I can get (and learn a LOT along the journey).

How does the week I planned (with early sleep) look? Some of them from Pete's list of workouts (like the 3x3k workout))

Joggernaut, your posts in this thread are great. Thanks for sharing this info man.

Umm no wrote:

Joggernaut, your posts in this thread are great. Thanks for sharing this info man.

I agree, he's taught me a lot of things I didn't know, and I highly appreciate it!

Update:

After Saturday's race, I ran a 75 Minute long run that afternoon, and ended up averaging 7:26/mi at 146 bpm (major cold front was starting to come) and I covered over 10 miles. I couldn't even believe I was really running 7:20/mi...It felt like 8:00 pace! I felt like I was barely jogging...felt so easy. Got me thinking: Where was that good feeling when I needed it in the morning?!

Last 2 nights, I went to bed at exactly 9:45 PM. Sunday (my day off) I felt much better, legs felt extremely light/bouncy and energetic especially walking around. This morning I woke up with a lower resting HR than usual (since I suppose I was more rested) and the weather was absolutely perfect for a nice, long tempo! (54 degrees!)

After a brief warm-up, I set off to run what was probably the best 40 Minute tempo I ever ran:

Mile 1: 6:05

Mile 2: 6:02

Mile 3: 6:05

Mile 4: 6:07

Mile 5: 5:56

Mile 6: 5:51

0.67 at 5:47 pace = 6.67mi, avg. pace: 6:00/mi and only 173 BPM! I actually PR'ed in the 10K in this run (37:20) and I could've kept going for a whole hour if I had to (felt a little heavy for the first 3-4 miles, but then I felt much better and went under 6 min pace)

It's AMAZING what you can do when you have a massive base and really nice weather. OF COURSE, the WEATHER was extremely nice, so no way of knowing if it's from being well rested or just the weather. I assume it's a combination of both (and it'll probably take a few more days to adapt to my new bedtime)

I also attempted 2(3x800) w/200/400j but after the 3rd 800 I COULD NOT hold the pace any more and I cut it short. I ran one more after a few minutes, and did 3x200 and 3x100m controlled, *fast strides. My legs are now very sore, and I'm exhausted. That tempo followed by speed that afternoon took quite a bit out of me.

I will be taking the rest of the week very easy (cancelling my 3x3K workout Wednesday) and if I start feeling better on my runs again, I'll CONSIDER the possibility of doing a 5K this Saturday...

I'll keep my bedtime at 9:30-9:45 PM for the rest of the year (I'll still stay up on new years!)

...And one more thing, I haven't iced my legs for quite a while, so I'm doing that after tomorrow's easy run for sure!

Hey,

Why did you do thes 800s on the same day as your tempo? What times did you run?

I'm glad your tempo went well. To be honest, you should be able to keep that pace for a marathon, based on your heartrate. This confirmatie my view that you need the race pace intervals very much. If you do not race saturday do a workout fridays at race pace. I would suggest 10x600 at race pace with 400m nog recovery. Dont do too hard interval sessions now. Dont become the second notaustin...

Thank you! It's a pleasure assisting the OP, especially since he's willing to learn and stick with it all. So many runners jump ship, whether it's a sinking vessel or one that's temporarily stuck in the doldrums. They change their approach at the first sign of trouble (many of them SHOULD of course, but many of them ought not). I believe the OP "gets" Hadd's message, but not quite to the degree he probably should. This isn't to call him out or anything, but he needs to recognize the primary principles in choosing such a method. (Hadd's modus operandi was ultimately more of a procedure than a plan.)

Nearly everyone will improve more rapidly with harder training, much faster in fact than via a plan employing a longer-range view. The only runners who do not improve more quickly are typically those who've already attained a high level of fitness (relative to themselves and their potential; their gains tend to be incremental at best) or those who end up injured or sick due to the more stressful training.

But harder/more intense training has its limits (and can present us with our own limitations), and the progress you see with this type of training tends to reach an impasse long before that of a more comprehensive training plan...a periodized one that incorporates all that's needed for LONG-TERM development, which is obligatory in reaching our best. (Although we all have to start somewhere, it takes a long time to get good!) That 'somewhere' is an aerobic foundation, as Hadd and many, many others rightfully tout.

This is the training that comes long before Canova's ephemeral 'general preparatory stage'...it's the stuff the vast majority of African elites did when they were up-and-comers. (They weren't nearly as fast then, but did they quit running because they weren't training specifically at the goal paces they could sustain later in their careers? Of course not! They kept progressing at the levels they COULD sustain. Think of it this way: right now, somewhere out there, is an African kid who runs much slower than he will one day, a kid who will win major events. The logic often found on this forum says since he "trains" so slow now, why doesn't he just quit?!) It's all pretty basic stuff to understand, really, but is so often neglected for those seeking more immediate success.

Luckily, these impasses are easily measured, if we're willing to take these measurements and subsequently take the measures necessary to ensure they don't become more permanent. Impasses or plateaus can derail an athlete's dreams if he or she doesn’t understand why they occur and how to avoid them in training. More often than not an athlete gives up on his/her dreams long before they've scratched the surface of their potential. A string of plateaus, hit-or-miss races, injury, illness, and poorly timed peaks can all destroy even the best athlete's motivation and drive, the key components in striving to achieve anything grand.

Obviously plateaus are going to arise within any training regimen, but they're far more likely when an athlete chooses to be in peak shape or near-peak shape at the incorrect times, training beyond their body's means (aka: writing checks their body can't cash). Peaking is a factual phenomenon and not only do we reach a physiological peak, but a mental and emotional one too (you've got to be hungry to dish out and deal with the hurt on race day). Driving the adrenals and our "chi" downward with premature intense training assures us we won't be at our best on race day, if we make it there at all. As Hadd analogized, we're only squeezing the toothpaste tube from its middle point, missing out on a whole lot of what's left in it...in us.

-----

The key Hadd-ism to remember...

At race intensity, there should be a linear-like relationship among your shortest "distance" efforts and the longer race distances. If the relationship favors the shorter events (inherent speed over "aerobic speed"), as it does in so many "brittle-base runners," it brings forth a clear answer as to what type of training should transpire.

Other -isms you (plural) may consider abiding by...

Don't disrupt progress, no matter how slow it's going!

We're endurance athletes, training for improved endurance and stamina. The aim isn't necessarily to get faster; it's to resist slowing down! Most of us possess enough inherent speed (i.e., sub-30/200m); we just lack the labor necessary to capitalize upon it.

Aerobic "benchmarks" can be repeated frequently, offering insight into how training is progressing, or whether it's progressing. At least once a week be sure to cross-reference pace with heart rate and your perceived exertion on a repeatable loop. Note anything and everything that may otherwise affect or alter heart rate and pace.

Mathematical modeling (as per Canova, et al) is definitely the way to train (i.e., SPECIFICITY), but it must be understood that: 1) such training must be specific to your body and not just your goal race pace; 2) a lengthy "base" must take precedence in order to benefit most from the pace-specific work; and 3) there can be 'too much of a good thing,' both in terms of specificity and general prep/base.

With this in mind, try not to train in a mono-pace manner, whether your "base speed" is swift or feeble. Run the downhills quickly but smoothly and controlled; incorporate micro-intervals (i.e., accelerations); use the treadmill to increase leg turn-over; and respect the neural needs of racing fast. Long bouts of steady-state training will make you faster, but by the time a runner has dropped a minute per mile off his aerobic threshold level (what I consider 90% of LT/HR for an averagely competent runner), he won't be fully ready to dial the speed up.

A Jerry Rice "-ism"...

Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can accomplish what others can't.

Anyhow, I best halt now. My apologies for scribbling so much!

Keep up with the upkeep.

Thank you for the long reply,

I understand, but what about HADD's phase 2A? I want to peak for a 5k November 27, and December 9.

After that, I go back into more base and prepare for a half marathon in January 18 2015. I have been base training for 6 months (since May!)

After that, I'll keep base training and race a couple of 5k's February-March before going into faster stuff and peak for a race May. Is that a bad idea?

Regardless, I still want to peak for the Nov. 27 race and December race, like I was peaked for districts last year in XC. This is my race season, since I'm a post HS runner training on his own, I have a race season (phase 2a) from mid October to mid December, ending with the January half (HADD said the base would give me ability to train 800-HM year round?)

How would I approach all this? How should I approach this?

Thanks! (Again I appreciate all help I can get here, This can get confusing sometimes!)

Personally I would do just a 2 week kind of taper before the November 27th and December 9th.

Then just train through (base stuff) the 1/2. Since it's longer the speed won't be nearly as important if you have natural speed.

Umm no wrote:

Personally I would do just a 2 week kind of taper before the November 27th and December 9th.

Then just train through (base stuff) the 1/2. Since it's longer the speed won't be nearly as important if you have natural speed.

Like this?

This week: 5k race (Monday was my hard day, easy all week)

Next week: no 5k race but 3-4 hard quality workouts (including fast long run)

Week after: Taper (lower mileage, 1-2 short peaking workouts with strides)

Week of race: Easy runs, race on Thursday morning (thanksgiving), easy runs the rest of week.

Then a hard week followed by 2 weeks easy for the December race?

I'll then do base-style stuff 60-70 MPW before the Half marathon.

My main concern is whether lowering mileage to taper would hurt my performance? I've read threads here where marathoners feel crappy on taper weeks...and taper is lower mileage AND intensity or just mileage?