I have contacts at Nike who have confirmed Alan used PEDs most of his career. You can choose to believe it or not. For me there's no doubt he did.
I have contacts at Nike who have confirmed Alan used PEDs most of his career. You can choose to believe it or not. For me there's no doubt he did.
No one has mentioned the book "Sub 4:" by Chris Lear on Alan Webb that profiles his first year at Michigan and decision to go pro and return to living in Reston and training with his high school coach. Anything is possible, but I doubt Chris would have continued with the book (and publishing it) if he had suspicions of PED use. He made a decision to not compete in college further (with the frequent racing for XC, indoor track, and outdoor track), so that he could focus on being the best possible mile runner. This worked through 2007.
It seems like John Cook would have been the ideal coach for him.
Nike wrote:
I have contacts at Nike who have confirmed Alan used PEDs most of his career. You can choose to believe it or not. For me there's no doubt he did.
Including high school?
Suspect alot of the old school milers like elliot, ryun, bannister were using testosterone. which wasn't illegal back then and considered a 'tonic'. Initially it was extracted from animal testicles, then later synthesized. The nazis gave it to their troops during WW II to increase aggression and performance, it was well-known in europe after ww ii.
nurmi was using test in the 1920s and won his medals due to it.
i think the big PED prior to blood-doping which was pioneered by Lasse Viren was testosterone. strongly suspect most, if not all MD runners in europe and the usa were using it.
notice how incredibly built chatham, bannister and brasher were in the 1950s despite being poor students and athletes?look at most UKers now, they aren't as buff. TESTOSTERONE>
What is it about Webb that raises questions? His PRs aren't crazy. The "3:46" AR is just barely under 3:47 and less than a second faster than Steve Scott's time. At 2mi, 5k and 10k he put in great times but they are not the best of his generation. He was inconsistent throughout his career. So this is basically about him being a precocious runner. precocious = PED user ??
Did this thread not be deleted because he asked it not to in the title?
Not a paid subscriber wrote:
Did this thread not be deleted because he asked it not to in the title?
No, it's because someone named ROJO allowed it.
Anyways, I say clean. Absolutely no evidence otherwise. The inconsistency argument gets me.
With the tour de France guy, there were always rumours swirling and the performance was always consistent. There were also "not normal" hemocrit changes on record and rumours of a covered up test. His teammates wrote books about him.
There was nothing like this for Alan Webb. You have to believe he was clean as a whistle. I do.
never worn a singlet wrote:
Not a paid subscriber wrote:Did this thread not be deleted because he asked it not to in the title?
No, it's because someone named ROJO allowed it.
Anyways, I say clean. Absolutely no evidence otherwise. The inconsistency argument gets me.
With the tour de France guy, there were always rumours swirling and the performance was always consistent. There were also "not normal" hemocrit changes on record and rumours of a covered up test. His teammates wrote books about him.
There was nothing like this for Alan Webb. You have to believe he was clean as a whistle. I do.
I have no doubt Webb has never used PEDs, though people will take whatever results they see (long consistency, up and down performances, sudden improvement, consistent improvement, one great season) as evidence of drug use.
Dope police wrote:
Nike wrote:I have contacts at Nike who have confirmed Alan used PEDs most of his career. You can choose to believe it or not. For me there's no doubt he did.
Including high school?
He's lying.
the contract was big enough that I find it hard to believe PED use wasn't involved.
there are two different payscales -- one if you're clean, another if you're willing to do whatever it takes. guess which is bigger.
Lance Armstrong had alot more defenders of his clean, PED-free status and much stronger argumentation about how he had always been a prodigy and all natural starting at 12 when he was winning every road race and had great Max VO2.
Webb has the most suspicious athletic of any miler to come along in a long time.
While he was a professional. I have no idea about high school. I'm not lying and there's really no point in arguing about it, he did it. Most people compete clean, the majority including Alan train dirty.
adsfasfads wrote:
To be fair, if there was anywhere in the US where I would expect to find a sleazy, unscrupulous doctor doling out PEDs to people who forked over enough money, it would definitely be Northern Virginia.
of any hs phenom, webb probably would have had the easiest access to peds.
Yeah, Northern Virginia is the epicenter of PEDs. Oh wait. What about that place called Southern Florida?
I was (am) a big fan of Webb, and carried the same high hopes as everyone, that he would put USA back on the map in the mile and 1500m.But I agree with this. What is it about Webb that even raises suspicion? Webb's times weren't that great on the world scene, and he doesn't have a long list of international victories.Webb's times would have been world records in the 1980's, and are comparable to Seb Coe, Steve Ovett, and Steve Cram.I guess the best argument is that in 2007, his best year as a pro, years of frustration pushed him to seek external aid. But even then, his world leading 3:30.54 and AR 3:46.91 puts him around 1980's world record performances of the UK athletes. Great performances, but in smaller meets that didn't matter in 2007. It didn't seem to help him win the World Championship.So is this whole thread about a phenomenal talent who needed dope to just equal 1980 (pre-EPO) performances?I don't see why anyone thinks "this is a great thread" worthy of discussion.
cmon mang wrote:
What is it about Webb that raises questions? His PRs aren't crazy. The "3:46" AR is just barely under 3:47 and less than a second faster than Steve Scott's time. At 2mi, 5k and 10k he put in great times but they are not the best of his generation. He was inconsistent throughout his career. So this is basically about him being a precocious runner. precocious = PED user ??
Nike wrote:
While he was a professional. I have no idea about high school. I'm not lying and there's really no point in arguing about it, he did it. Most people compete clean, the majority including Alan train dirty.
This is not correct so you are either lying or have been severely misinformed.
splash wrote:
Lots of people on here say that "he's the most talented runner ever" or "he has a strong swimming background" to back up their statements that he's clean.
Perhaps someone has pointed this out already, but you have essentially said the following:
"John Doe recently set a new world record by eating 29 used tampons in under a minute. Many have said that 'He has a large mouth, esophagus, and stomach and he's a disgusting pig" or "he prayed to Jesus for success" to explain his abilities."
IOW, one makes sense and the other is an oft-invoked bunch of bullshit. If Webb had been an avid badminton player in his youth, people would be speculating that the aerobic development resulting from playing badminton paved the way for his success in running.
The bulkyness, the baldness, the early peaking then burnout...sounds like hormone abuse early in his career (yes, even high school) then suffering the consequences later.
rojo wrote:
(Mods, please don't delete this thread. I've got no problem with it. Why this wouldn't be allowed but posts about crimes would is beyond me).
OP,
You are right. This topic hasn't been discussed before because few think he's dirty. I'll take your points point by point.
splash wrote:1. He ran an outrageous 3:53 in his last race as a high schooler, PRing by seven seconds (of course, he raced against professionals runners in that particular mile)
What is your point? Alan Webb was a phenom from the moment he started running. He was the sophomore record holder in the mile at 4:06. He ran 3:59 indoors that year.
Improving by 13 seconds from 10th to 12th grade isn't unheard of, nor is improving six seconds from indoors to outdoors particularly when the outdoor race is in front of packed stadium and national tv audience.
splash wrote:
2. Webb ran an unexpected American Record of 3:46 in a low-key meet, which was the only time (I believe) that he went sub-3:50.
First of all, while the fact that he got the record may have been a bit of a surprise, it wasn't really totally unexpected. The guy was on fire - running 3:51 miles in April and had just won the Paris DL in 3:30 two weeks before.
Secondly, you seem to know next to nothing about how drug testing works. As David Epstein told me, you'd have to be a fool to get busted in an in-competition test.
That being said, all-American records are followed by a drug test. So it doesn't matter whether Webb said the American record in the mile at the Olympics or some obscure meet, he was getting drug tested either way.
But in 2007, Webb certainly didn't stay away from the major meets like so many dopers have done. Webb's racing schedule that year was big meet after big meet where testers are very likely to show up.
In 2007, Webb ran
New Balance Games at Armory in Jan
Boston Indoor Games in Jan.
Millrose in Feb.
USA indoors in Feb.
Drake in May
NY DL in June
USAs in June.
Paris DL in July
AR in mile in July
WC in August
Zurich in Sept.
WAF in Stuttgart in Sept.
In hindsight, it's easy to see how he didn't have it at Worlds as he was in 3:51 shape at Drake in April. The guy was on fire all year pretty much and racing big meet after big meet.
splash wrote:
3. Since 2007, Webb has run bad race after bad race, and has been beaten by college and high school runners many times.
You are correct. 2007 was by far his most brilliant year of his career and pretty much his last really good year. If he was on drugs, he wouldn't just fade away. Drugs = consistency.
So your point here is the #1 reason why most think it's crazy to think he was on drugs.
splash wrote:
4. Therefore, is it logical to assume Webb was using illegal performance-enhancing substances that assisted him to the American Record and maybe even his 3:53??
No it's not logical at all.
At LetsRun.com, we welcome people asking questions about drugs but people need to know what they are talking about.
You need to understand a) how drug testing works and b) the facts. You seem to be missing out on both.
Webb was a long-time phenom in track and field. If there was anyone based on what he was doing in 10th grade, who you'd expect to run 3:46 in the mile, it would be him.
The fact that he was amazingly inconsistent is a sign that he likely wasn't on drugs. My take, the kid trained his butt off and went very deep into the well in workouts. When it worked, it produced spectacular results. When it proved to be too much, it produced disaster.
Was it too much too handle or was Webb a guy who just matured earlier than most (the guy was bald at a very early age)? Does it really matter? Better to burn bright at least once.
Since doping is a very common topic in the circles I operate in, I've always said, "Given his body of work, no way Alan Webb was on drugs unless you want to assume he was already on them in 10th grade."
That drugs=consistency was the most stupid thing I´ve ever heard. It´s the other way around. Look at Ramzi, Sureya Ayyan (sp?), Lasse Viren (we don´t know for sure if he doped, though), Andrus Veerpalu (XC skiing) etc.
With your logic, Rupp must be on drugs.
WEBB IS OBVIOUSLY A DRUG CHEAT. he was the kind of guy to push all his easy runs too fast train to hard and that's just who he was. he was able to get away with this style of training while he was on the juice which was most likely near the end of highschool until 2007 when drug tests were becoming much more common and much harder to get around. with the mixture of his absence of drugs and his total D-bag personality of pushing everything to hard he became a waste of money for nike and washup