Was Alan Webb really clean? (mods plz DONT DELETE nothing against the rules)

Who?

Nobody here knows for sure. His relatively brief period at the top and lots of injuries is an argument against PED usage.

bro, do you even know malmo? wrote:

splash wrote:

Here we are in 2014 with Webb about to retire after not running well since 2007. He has had six years of poor performances, so lets look at the facts.

2. Webb ran an unexpected American Record of 3:46 in a low-key meet, which was the only time (I believe) that he went sub-3:50.

- It was not unexpected

- It was not the only time he went under 3:50

splash wrote:

4. Therefore, is it logical to assume Webb was using illegal performance-enhancing substances that assisted him to the American Record and maybe even his 3:53??

No

This. Webb ran 3:32 (~3:49 or 3:50) in an early race in Europe in 2004(?), ran 3:50 at PRE, ran 3:48 in 2005 or 2006, rand 3:30 and 1:45 before his 3:46AR, and had put up times like 8:11 for 2miles going out in 4:03 and 13:10 for 5000m running the last lap in 70 seconds or thereabouts. His 3:46 was a carefully planned attempt at the AR, and it was totally expected he would run 3:47 or faster unless he had an off day. He was inconsistent season to season, but had been running at the super elite level since high school (PRs of 47.x, 1:47.x, 3:53 (3:39 en route), and 8:45 by himself indoors). He had excellent coaching and funding but had a lot of injuries and coach switches towards the end of his career. I think the injuries probably played the biggest role.

He may or may not have been clean, but if he was clean in high school, I see it possible if not likely the rest of his career was clean also.

My perhaps naive mindset is this. He ran 3:59 as a junior in high school and 3:53 as a senior. I find it extremely hard to believe that he was on some sort of PED in high school. If that is true, it implies he was incredibly talented (as others suggested).

He wasn't a complete flash in the pan as your OP suggests. He had numerous races where he beat big names including Lagat multiple times, though nothing on the BIG stage besides his win in Paris over Baala.

My thought regarding his up and down career is this, and I think many will agree; The guy is a headcase. When he couldn't match the incredible success he had in high school he would freak out. He left Michigan after one year. Why run for them at all if you're only going to compete for one year!? He obviously panicked after ONE sub-par year and went pro. He's changed coaches how many times since being a pro?

He had the talent to be a world beater but didn't have the right head on his shoulders to make it happen.

This is all speculation from someone who has little detail on his athlete/coach relationships and no knowledge of his personality aside from what I see in interviews.

to my trained eye(i worked on the fringes of european pro cycling in the 90s)

his trajectory isn't of that of stereotypical dopers

started off with a high level of talent and failed to achieve

(Mods, please don't delete this thread. I've got no problem with it. Why this wouldn't be allowed but posts about crimes would is beyond me).OP,You are right. This topic hasn't been discussed before because few think he's dirty. I'll take your points point by point.

What is your point? Alan Webb was a phenom from the moment he started running. He was the sophomore record holder in the mile at 4:06. He ran 3:59 indoors that year.

Improving by 13 seconds from 10th to 12th grade isn't unheard of, nor is improving six seconds from indoors to outdoors particularly when the outdoor race is in front of packed stadium and national tv audience.

First of all, while the fact that he got the record may have been a bit of a surprise, it wasn't really totally unexpected. The guy was on fire - running 3:51 miles in April and had just won the Paris DL in 3:30 two weeks before.

Secondly, you seem to know next to nothing about how drug testing works. As David Epstein told me, you'd have to be a fool to get busted in an in-competition test.

That being said, all-American records are followed by a drug test. So it doesn't matter whether Webb said the American record in the mile at the Olympics or some obscure meet, he was getting drug tested either way.

But in 2007, Webb certainly didn't stay away from the major meets like so many dopers have done. Webb's racing schedule that year was big meet after big meet where testers are very likely to show up.

In 2007, Webb ran

New Balance Games at Armory in Jan

Boston Indoor Games in Jan.

Millrose in Feb.

USA indoors in Feb.

Drake in May

NY DL in June

USAs in June.

Paris DL in July

AR in mile in July

WC in August

Zurich in Sept.

WAF in Stuttgart in Sept.

In hindsight, it's easy to see how he didn't have it at Worlds as he was in 3:51 shape at Drake in April. The guy was on fire all year pretty much and racing big meet after big meet.

You are correct. 2007 was by far his most brilliant year of his career and pretty much his last really good year. If he was on drugs, he wouldn't just fade away. Drugs = consistency.

So your point here is the #1 reason why most think it's crazy to think he was on drugs.

No it's not logical at all.

At LetsRun.com, we welcome people asking questions about drugs but people need to know what they are talking about.

You need to understand a) how drug testing works and b) the facts. You seem to be missing out on both.

Webb was a long-time phenom in track and field. If there was anyone based on what he was doing in 10th grade, who you'd expect to run 3:46 in the mile, it would be him.

The fact that he was amazingly inconsistent is a sign that he likely wasn't on drugs. My take, the kid trained his butt off and went very deep into the well in workouts. When it worked, it produced spectacular results. When it proved to be too much, it produced disaster.

Was it too much too handle or was Webb a guy who just matured earlier than most (the guy was bald at a very early age)? Does it really matter? Better to burn bright at least once.

Since doping is a very common topic in the circles I operate in, I've always said, "Given his body of work, no way Alan Webb was on drugs unless you want to assume he was already on them in 10th grade."

I agree with rojo on this (for a change because I disagree with him about Radcliffe and Bolt).

I believe that if Webb were doped he was doped since like 9th grade. Sure this is possible, e.g. Marion Jones, but unlikely. His progression seemed very normal and a guy who runs 3:53 in high school should be able to run 3:46.

Also, if he were doped during his heyday, why would he all of a sudden stop after 2007 and continue to struggle heavily all the way to 2014? Doesn't make much sense.

What is your point? Virtually every high profile track athlete who has been busted for doping were phenoms. How is Webb any different from them?

What is your evidence that “so many” dopers stay away from major meets? How is it that the dopers are always getting caught at major meets when they are "staying away from them"?

Drugs = consistency? Support your statement with facts? What do you know that the rest of the world doesn’t about doping? If someone was on drugs then had to stop because the testing finally caught up with them, wouldn’t they just fade away ...... just like Webb did?

You really aren't helping Webb's case.

hey deep thinker

you need to think a bit more deeply about some of your opinions

if you're capable

does anyone know of the grey area northern VA doctor that was practicing around the time of the 3:53? i know of a couple of faster people that visited him and might have "accidentally" consumed some questionable things.

Yes I do actually, I had a family member get EPO from him. His name was Complete Fabrication and he practiced at the office of You're Pulling That Out Of Your ---.

To be fair, if there was anywhere in the US where I would expect to find a sleazy, unscrupulous doctor doling out PEDs to people who forked over enough money, it would definitely be Northern Virginia.

Maybe he left AS because AS does not condone PEDs.

[/quote]What is your evidence that “so many” dopers stay away from major meets? How is it that the dopers are always getting caught at major meets when they are "staying away from them"?[/quote]

If you really are serious asking this question, then you are so clueless that you shouldn't be probing here because it's simply a waste of time for people to respond to you. Ever hear of the Turkish 1500 meter chicks from the Olympics, all of these Chinese record holders, much of the Russian team or Makhloufi?

What dopers have been nailed at major meets? Most of the big busts have been from out-of-competition testing or biological passport issues.

More would speculate that he left AS because AS encourages use of thyroid meds and other gray zone PEDs.

Pedalow wrote:

Maybe he left AS because AS does not condone PEDs.

rojo wrote:Secondly, you seem to know next to nothing about how drug testing works. As David Epstein told me, you'd have to be a fool to get busted in an in-competition test.

That being said, all-American records are followed by a drug test. So it doesn't matter whether Webb said the American record in the mile at the Olympics or some obscure meet, he was getting drug tested either way

just to re-iterate the dope-test requirements of a top-draw

"run"

here is story of what deakes had to undergo to "legit" his 50k wr :

This sh*t flinging in this thread is ridiculous.

Its obvious no one knows anything.

But one point struck me about Webb, he was ALWAYS hurt. His Junior year of highschool, his track season at Michigan, 2006 Prefontaine Mile, 2008, and most of 2010-now. Someone who was injured as much as he was probably wasn't doping.

And as far as him being a headcase, if he's knowingly competing against doped runners and he's almost constantly hurt and the expectations placed on him are enormous and he takes all of this very seriously as its his job then its understandable in a way what would happen such as 2004 semi, 2005 final, and 2007 final. The only one of those I really think he faltered was the 2007 final, 2004 was inexperience and 2005 was a serious tactical error.

When I look at Webb I see a dedicated, talented, and clean athlete who gave it his best and came up short. He did things the right and honest way and no one can take that away from him or say he didn't live up to some lofty expectation.

Frauds wrote:

What is your evidence that “so many” dopers stay away from major meets? How is it that the dopers are always getting caught at major meets when they are "staying away from them"?[/quote]

If you really are serious asking this question, then you are so clueless that you shouldn't be probing here because it's simply a waste of time for people to respond to you. Ever hear of the Turkish 1500 meter chicks from the Olympics, all of these Chinese record holders, much of the Russian team or Makhloufi?

What dopers have been nailed at major meets? Most of the big busts have been from out-of-competition testing or biological passport issues.[/quote]

It's not worth responding to someone who is so ignorant to the history of the sport.

List of athletics drug busts

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics

Many of them were caught at OG, WC, NC, OT, Golden League, etc.