CRAIG LUTZ
CRAIG LUTZ
He broke the HS 3000m record in 1986 and it lasted 18 years- his great HS career is worthy of mention in this thread: John Trautmann
He doesn't belong on this list, but I am still impressed with Jeff Hess's steeple chase record. 8:50 in high school takes a serious tough MF'ing man child.
Kersh should also get some love. 1:46 is a sub 4 level performance. If you start throwing in the sprinters most of this list goes away.One other thing to think about is career versus top performance. Rupp didn't have an all time great career. 13:37 though is one of the great performances of all time.
crusader wrote:
He broke the HS 3000m record in 1986 and it lasted 18 years- his great HS career is worthy of mention in this thread: John Trautmann
The once a month thread.
Of course we aren't talking about sprinters. "Running" is definitely 800 up; anything below that and people say "sprinters." And as others have pointed out, even including 800 specialists is stretching it (though if we are Granville certainly belongs on the list, and probably Kersh).
John Trautman? What is 8:05.8 worth for a two-mile? Like 8:44 or so? No way he makes the list. That might be an HSR, but you have to compare it to two-mile and 3200 times, given how close it is in distance. Too many other guys have run equivalent times and done other notable stuff.
SPONSOREDMESSAGE wrote:
mid-atlantic native wrote:Marty Liquori ranks up there just below Ryun. IMO, he had a better emotional balance than Ryun, more suited for competitive racing.
Actually Ryun was a great competitor until he was ruined by the US media after finishing second (at well above a mile in altitude) in the '68 Olympics. By your logic, then Liquori was actually terrible. He ran horribly in the '68 1500 final, didn't make it in '72 or '76, and has only a second in the 5k at the '78 World Cup.
In truth, Ryun and Liquori both had bad luck, just like many other world class runners throughout history.
Liquori, a freshman at Nova, aquired a stress fracture during the semis at Mexico City.
Horrible eh?
Michael Granville is not only among the best high school runners of all time, but is arguably THE BEST Middle School runner of all time.
48.79 400m and 1:56.3 800m in the 8th grade
Well, LV and Cheserek ran 8:40 and 8:42 indoors against each other without anyone towing them, and LV ran 3:59 against high schoolers in the rain, so I guess you can check both boxes for LV and one for Ches. Conclusion: LV has to be in the top 5. Rupp, GF, even Ritz...those guys are a notch below. Virgin, LV, Ryun - those guys just did not lose. Period.
newname wrote:
Cheserek, Verzbicas, Webb, Jeff Nelson, Rupp, Fernandez all ran faster in their respective events than some of the guys in the 60's and 70's, some of the time ... but did they run a 3:58y or 8:41y against HS competition under tough conditions?
get real wrote:
Sartor Resartus wrote:Yes, I've heard of Marty Liquori. He had an excellent mile PR, but it wasn't a record. It was the third fastest HS mile at the time and puts him number five today, about half a second ahead of #6, Don Sage.
Perhaps you could familiarize me with some of his other accomplishments? Why, for instance, he should be placed ahead of Tim Danielson, who was faster and broke four before he did, or Don Sage, who he is not notably faster than and who also had outstanding achievements in XC? He certainly doesn't go ahead of Webb, Granville, or Verzbikas, all of whom set records at standard HS distances, and two of whom were faster than Liquori.
WOW you're ignorant.
Liquori ran sub 4 in high school. Held the Van Cortlandt Park HS XC record (12:23) when it was on sand and rocks. Olympian as a college freshman, made the Olympic final in 1968, youngest ever at the time. Multiple NCAA and AAU champion at 1500/mile and 5000m. Won the epic Dream Mile against Ryun. Held the AR at 2 miles and 5000m. Was ranked #1 in the world in the 1500m twice. Was ranked #1 in the world in the 5000 in 1977, 2nd in 1978, 3rd in 1975. He even finished 5th in the 1978 AAU 10k the night before his 3rd consecutive 5000 win.
Take out Ryun, the combined credentials of your #2-10 don't match up with Liquori's.
Virgin broke Prefontaine's HS two mile record (8:41.6 on a synthetic track in perfect conditions) with his 8:40.9 in the middle of the afternoon on a hot day, so hot that the rubberized asphalt track surface was melting. His HS cross country record at the state championship course still stands today.
Are you some kind of idiot or something? The title of the thread is "Top Ten Greatest HIGH SCHOOL Runners..."
Guppy wrote:
get real wrote:[quote]Sartor Resartus wrote:
Yes, I've heard of Marty Liquori. He had an excellent mile PR, but it wasn't a record. It was the third fastest HS mile at the time and puts him number five today, about half a second ahead of #6, Don Sage.
Perhaps you could familiarize me with some of his other accomplishments? Why, for instance, he should be placed ahead of Tim Danielson, who was faster and broke four before he did, or Don Sage, who he is not notably faster than and who also had outstanding achievements in XC? He certainly doesn't go ahead of Webb, Granville, or Verzbikas, all of whom set records at standard HS distances, and two of whom were faster than Liquori.
WOW you're ignorant.
Liquori ran sub 4 in high school. Held the Van Cortlandt Park HS XC record (12:23) when it was on sand and rocks. Olympian as a college freshman, made the Olympic final in 1968, youngest ever at the time. Multiple NCAA and AAU champion at 1500/mile and 5000m. Won the epic Dream Mile against Ryun. Held the AR at 2 miles and 5000m. Was ranked #1 in the world in the 1500m twice. Was ranked #1 in the world in the 5000 in 1977, 2nd in 1978, 3rd in 1975. He even finished 5th in the 1978 AAU 10k the night before his 3rd consecutive 5000 win.
Take out Ryun, the combined credentials of your #2-10 don't match up with Liquori's.
Virgin broke Prefontaine's HS two mile record (8:41.6 on a synthetic track in perfect conditions) with his 8:40.9 in the middle of the afternoon on a hot day, so hot that the rubberized asphalt track surface was melting. His HS cross country record at the state championship course still stands
Are you some kind of idiot or something? The title of the thread is "Top Ten Greatest HIGH SCHOOL Runners..."
Evidently he missed that part. No doubt Liquori was a major HS stud, but his HS career doesn't quite compare with Ryuns.
If you had to do a decathlon style track meet with events ranging from 800m - 10k, Webb would win by a mile.
As someone said, the Ryun (3:55), Webb (3:59i, 3:53o, 8:45i one attempt), and LV (3:59,8:29) should be on everyone's top 5 just off times and domination of their era.
There is only 1 HSer who has run within ~6 seconds of Alan Webb in the mile and he did that 45 years ago.
There are only 2 HSers who have run within 11 seconds of LV ever. This is monumental stuff.
No amount of 95 degree races, or legend-has-it races can make up for what those guys did.
This is without bias, because I think GF was probably more talented than LV, but he didn't go for Pre and didn't attempt to break 4. So, as it stands, LV is a top 5er, and GF is a top 10er.
----
Modern era:
webb
lukas
german
older:
ryun
virgin
lindgren
argue about the others.
As great, as phenomenal, as world-shattering as Jim Ryun was in high school, I would have to give the nod to Gerry Lindgren as the greatest high school runner of all time. He was a 4:01 Miler. He won the U.S. Olympic Trial 10K the summer after he graduated from high school, defeating the future Olympic Gold Medalist Billy Mills. He was ninth in the Tokyo final only because he ran on a sprained ankle. His 13:44 5K in high school remained the record for forty years. It takes nothing away from Ryun, arguably the most talented Miler/Metric Miler of all time, to give Gerry the laurels as the greatest schoolboy runner in American history.
One way to think about this is performance in open competition while in HS (or at least before college). E.g., off the top of my head, Ryun, Lindgren, and Pre all made senior teams (Ryun & Lindgren actually made Olympic teams)...any other HS runners who did the same?
Not to muddy the waters, but if we were looking broader than middle/long runners, Bob Mathias probably takes the prize as greatest HS T&F athlete...gold in '52.
Distance Maniac wrote:
Guppy wrote:WOW you're ignorant.
Liquori ran sub 4 in high school. Held the Van Cortlandt Park HS XC record (12:23) when it was on sand and rocks. Olympian as a college freshman, made the Olympic final in 1968, youngest ever at the time. Multiple NCAA and AAU champion at 1500/mile and 5000m. Won the epic Dream Mile against Ryun. Held the AR at 2 miles and 5000m. Was ranked #1 in the world in the 1500m twice. Was ranked #1 in the world in the 5000 in 1977, 2nd in 1978, 3rd in 1975. He even finished 5th in the 1978 AAU 10k the night before his 3rd consecutive 5000 win.
Take out Ryun, the combined credentials of your #2-10 don't match up with Liquori's.
Virgin broke Prefontaine's HS two mile record (8:41.6 on a synthetic track in perfect conditions) with his 8:40.9 in the middle of the afternoon on a hot day, so hot that the rubberized asphalt track surface was melting. His HS cross country record at the state championship course still stands
Are you some kind of idiot or something? The title of the thread is "Top Ten Greatest HIGH SCHOOL Runners..."
Evidently he missed that part. No doubt Liquori was a major HS stud, but his HS career doesn't quite compare with Ryuns.
As someone else has already said, how do you compare clock time when track surfaces were different back in the 50s and 60s?
To pretend there is some objectivity in determining greatness is silly.
Let's just express each person's opinion and move on.
Ryuns counter point-Ran in the olympics as a junior-Set the american record in the mile as senior-ranked #4 in the world as a miler-Held the HS record for 30+ years in an event that every high schooler ran not a niche event. 13:44 was awesome but HS kids don't run a ton of 5ksI would give Ryun a slight edge but you are really splitting hairs. Those performances from 50 years ago stand up to anything since.
starmiler wrote:
As great, as phenomenal, as world-shattering as Jim Ryun was in high school, I would have to give the nod to Gerry Lindgren as the greatest high school runner of all time. He was a 4:01 Miler. He won the U.S. Olympic Trial 10K the summer after he graduated from high school, defeating the future Olympic Gold Medalist Billy Mills. He was ninth in the Tokyo final only because he ran on a sprained ankle. His 13:44 5K in high school remained the record for forty years. It takes nothing away from Ryun, arguably the most talented Miler/Metric Miler of all time, to give Gerry the laurels as the greatest schoolboy runner in American history.
That course record at McAlpine was run in AWFUL conditions. Decent conditions and he breaks 14:25.
Sartor Resartus wrote:
Middle Distance Analyst wrote:So Webb's 3:53 mile is not good enough for a Top 10? He didn't just break, he smashed Ryun's HS record. For this race alone, you have to include Webb in the Top 10. He also ran 8:45 for 2 indoors and broke 4:00 a few other times.
Webb was also an excellent XC runner, 2d at Footlocker, and ran what I think is the most underrated XC race of all time, a 14:36 at Hagan Stone Park in North Carolina. Probably equal to 14:1x at McAlpine (the Footlocker South course). Also course record at McAlpine (though it was a weak record).
Can't neglect his part in the still-standing DMR HSR (4:00 1600).
He won by 24 seconds. He's a lot closer to Ryun than you think.
This list is awful. Lukas Verzbicas is way better than nearly all of them.
Rupp wasn't even the top guy in XC his senior year. Withrow's FL race has to count for something - sub 9 and a National Champion in XC beating 2 future NCAA XC Champions, an African and Ben True in addition to countless other future All-Americans.