PAUL SHORT SHUT DOWN

Dunce wrote:

83 feels like 83 is hardly a heat wave. Athletes, coaches, and parents failed to prepare properly, end of story.

I bet a lot of them were stood yattering in the sun for an hour before the start. You should not be collapsing after such a short distance

What age are the runners and do they live in the local area?

Why do you run xc in summer anyway in states. I suppose they would be all dropping like flies with hypothermia if there was a light frost though

anonymous coward wrote:

yep, that's exactly my question. the consensus is clearly that it was dangerously hot, but the times across the board are as fast as any year in recent memory. I can't figure this one out.

1) The course IS 8k. that's a fact. if you want to debate it, don't derail the thread, go to the thread that's already discussing it.

2) Weather was bad. That definitely seems to be the consensus. I imagine it wasn't just the heat; air quality is an overlooked, but vitally important, factor.

3) Times were fast. At worst, the times were comparable to other years. realistically though, the times might actually be FASTER than in past years.

I know all three to be true--but I also don't see how they CAN all be true. definitely puzzled by this one.

It has also been very dry here in the Mid-Atlantic for the last 2 months. Perhaps the long dry spell made the course faster this year than previous years?

paulshortfinisher wrote:

I also was in the race and did not run exceptionally well or poor, but I was up towards the front of the open race and personally turned a corner during the last mile and saw MULTIPLE people face down in the middle of the course as well as many many others crawling on the side. Yes Lehigh was not prepared and i think next year they will suffer from it.

Why would they be prepared to treat 150 people? Even at a summer road race it's usually 20 or so, tops. The finger-wagging in this thread is hilarious. Everyone is pursing lips about ignorance and weakness when all evidence points to weather conditions which were deceptively bad and caught everyone--runners and organizers alike--off guard. This wasn't a bunch of noobs that didn't know what they were doing. There were a lot of good college runners humbled by the conditions and people in this thread are seriously trying to describe it as a sudden mass outbreak of ill-preparedness.

I am seeing lots of conflicting arguments

- Athletes weren't running enough over the summer (these are collegiate athletes dropping out)

- Cali, Texas, Florida and other southern states have it much worse (this is around the great lakes)

- The northeast should be prepared for these conditions (the summer was unreasonably cool)

- You wouldn't see a football game cancelled because of heat (is there even sweat in that 'sport'?)

- There was no shade (aren't these guys used to running on golf courses?)

etc.

Here is an important question in regards to the 1st conflicting argument - if it was averaging 70-75 degrees over the summer, were the collegiate athletes still doing 50+% of their running in minimal clothing?

Barry Badrinath wrote:

. This wasn't a bunch of noobs that didn't know what they were doing. There were a lot of good college runners humbled by the conditions and people in this thread are seriously trying to describe it as a sudden mass outbreak of ill-preparedness.

Of course they ran much harder for the conditions than they were capable of. Most runners go out way too fast anyway. Throw in extremely hot weather and that will magnify that even more.

A couple coaches came on here and told how they made sure their team ran a slower pace and they were okay. Just because someone is a really good college runner doesn't mean they are a really smart college runner or a really experienced college runner if they haven't raced a lot in hot conditions. Some are shocked that hot humid weather can knock off 20-30 seconds a mile if you aren't prepared.

This again brings up the practice of racing far fewer times than runners used to. They don't have the multitude of experiences and can quickly get into trouble when adverse conditions hit.

If you read the thread you would know the ages of the runners (HS and College and Open) and you would know where they are from (all over the Northeast, but mostly areas where it would be as hot or hotter than Lehigh).

Fall started 16 days ago here, and it is normally about 60-70 degrees in the middle of the day where the race was in early October.

When does Fall start in Britain?

Leakos ran a fantastic time no doubt. I also saw him collapse after the finish line. The times this year were fast for the athletes that could handle it but for the other athletes it was horrific.

The course was in the best shape I've seen it in the past 6 years so for sure that helped with times especially for the people who are physiologically put together to handle the heat better.

The past few years the course has been soggy or muddy every time.

My usual 7th man was my top runner, not coincidently he's from Florida.

forget the splits wrote:

A couple coaches came on here and told how they made sure their team ran a slower pace and they were okay.

No. One of those coaches said he/she still had a runner drop out, and the other one had to ice someone down after the finish. Not to mention the runners who have chimed in.

forget the splits wrote:Just because someone is a really good college runner doesn't mean they are a really smart college runner or a really experienced college runner if they haven't raced a lot in hot conditions. Some are shocked that hot humid weather can knock off 20-30 seconds a mile if you aren't prepared.

No one is shocked at this. Slow times aren't what shut the meet down, it was people passing out from overheating, most of whom had trained in worse heat over the summer; the point being that they had since been deacclimated.

forget the splits wrote:

This again brings up the practice of racing far fewer times than runners used to. They don't have the multitude of experiences and can quickly get into trouble when adverse conditions hit.

Thanks for bringing up this point, which I hadn't considered here (though I've ranted on the subject before). I do think the dearth of races that some teams schedule may have played a role in the difficulties that some runners encountered.

Somewhat separate topic: If the county told the meet to shut down--as news accounts indicate--then that's it.

I can remember a State championship meet for high school cross-country that was shut down, with half of the races yet to run. That one was in snowy and terribly cold conditions, and after the first couple races--when all the county's ambulances had been dispatched--the county sheriff drove onto the course in front of the starting line, declared the meet a public menace, and ordered the gathering to disperse.

If the law says stop, you stop.

lease wrote:

Somewhat separate topic: If the county told the meet to shut down--as news accounts indicate--then that's it.

If the law says stop, you stop.

Exactly. Imagine the conversation with your AD Monday morning if you're a coach who ran a meet against the demands of the county.

Also, the comparisons of tempo workouts to a race is ridiculous. Paul Short is neither the first nor last time I'll see someone crawling across a finish line. I haven't seen that all too often in a workout, especially a tempo session where you're running at sub max efforts.

I was part of one of the teams short-changed by the cancellation, so I'm certainly disappointed but whether you want to arm chair analyze the hydration, toughness, coaching prep, or meet organization, the bottom line is circumstances were getting out of hand. Athletes in the first 6 boxes were instructed to run around the (up to) 8 ambulances parked in their way between the start line and finish area.

I was in the mens white race which was the last one before they shut it down. It was defiantly hot. Im a senior in college so over the last 8 years running in the northeast area this is way way hotter then I had ever run XC in. However it wasn't as brutal as it sounded. After seeing the 8th or so guy drop out I started to think they were doing it because they felt it was okay given the fact that other people had started the trend. Also the HPYE of Paul short is that its fast. So people went out HARD which wasn't the smartest. Given how much hotter it got by 2 which was when the white went off I adjusted and ran what i felt was smart which was a minute slower then I wanted. But if I had tried to go for a Pr which i believe a lot of people were tying to do in a race that felt like 90 something degrees I might have found myself in some trouble.

I think we can all agree it was a complete failure on every level. From the meet organizers, meteorologists, parents, officials, coaches, athletes, hospital employees, spectators, and the County officials. Blame should be equally divided.

Armchair Official wrote:

I think we can all agree it was a complete failure on every level. From the meet organizers, meteorologists, parents, officials, coaches, athletes, hospital employees, spectators, and the County officials. Blame should be equally divided.

Maybe (could have had more ice/water etc)

No

No

No

Maybe (see above, could have advised runners better)

Maybe (see above)

No

No

No

As a spectator who was at the race since the open races at 10am, I have a few observations:

- The heat was REAL. Debate back and forth as you may, but as somebody who ran the race 4 times in college, the weather was completely out of the scope of what most people's bodies are accustomed to at this point in the season

- The lack of preparation by Lehigh was also apparent. Adding some water stations and the idea of the "mist" areas could have been a few easy fixes they could have put into place that morning, and they didn't happen.

- It was a county shutdown. The local emergency room was overrun with runners coming in on ambulances and the local ambulance services were all hands on deck at the race - which means they had no resources to cover the rest of the county.

I mean, you can call it as you see it - but in the end, even if the county didn't shut down the race, I think it would have been advantageous by Lehigh to cut it off before the HS races anyways. Literally, I was standing by the finishing stretch during the women's gold race and I felt like I was in a warzone. They were carting runners off the course left and right, packed in 5 to a gator.

If you want to blame conditioning, can you imagine putting thousands of high school students through even more adverse conditions than conditions that were taking down collegiate level runners? It's one thing to put college runners through a race in those conditions, but it's a whole other animal with high school runners.

Pained me to see it play out the way it did, but it was necessary. Lehigh made the right move (whether their hand was forced or not), and I'm sure Paul Short will take a hit next year.

sounds like this must have been due largely to people being out there with no shade for hours waiting for their races and then running them, again with no shade, and all of that in the hottest time of the day on a hot day after six weeks of cooling for the northerners. otherwise, it seems hard to explain, as there are plenty of meets in September in the deep South with worse conditions and no problems.

Still don't get it.

Yes the real-feel temperature was up to 90. However, the temperature was up at 84-88 all week. Many high school runners had league meets Wednesday with the real feel temperature at 87 with no problems. Also, most of the real-feel temperatures in Pennyslvania were 75-85 throughout the month of September.

Also, most teams brought tents and there was a slight breeze. So runners could keep out of the sun except to their warmup and 15 minutes before their race.

So unless the college runner do only morning workouts, I would think they would still have some tolerance for the heat.

Interesting to note that after the cancellation announcement, just about ever high school team took a tempo run on the course. Yes is was a slower pace, but no ill affects. (Of course it is also 5K)

No argument from me, I agree.

I wasnt there but I was not too far away at a soccer game. It was brutal there just spectating. And I felt no breeze. I felt like a roast cooking in the sun.

All you need to get is that EMS and hospitals were inundated. I can see how, I was outside in it too. If you cant well, whatever, but the reality speaks for itself.

xcd wrote:

Still don't get it.

You probably won't ever get it. All this talk about "real feel" is meaningless, and here's why:

First of all, temperatures that are recorded at weather stations are IN THE SHADE. Read it and repeat it. The arbitrary metric of "real feel" and "heat index" is based on adjustments for Dew Point, but it is still based on those IN THE SHADE readings. They are in-the-shade real feel numbers.

The actual ambient temperatures on the ground on a sunny day are much higher than the temperatures recorded by weather stations. MUCH MUCH higher. It's common sense to all that during the Summer it's much easier to run once the Sun sets, even if the temperature hardly drops from the daily high, just as it is much easier to run at noon on a cloudy day than a sunny one.

80 degrees in the middle of the day is much more difficult to run than 90 degrees in the late afternoon/evening when the Sun's altitude is low on the horizon. A perfect example was a few years ago at the Golden League Meeting in Doha where they ran 12:50, the fastest 5000 of the year, in 90 degree "heat". Why was that? Two things, the race was held well after Sunset, and secondly the dew point was low.

The case of Paul Short is easy to figure out. The reported temperature at 10am was 70 deg (remember, that's in the shade) and the actual ground temperature would have been "somewhat warmer," as the Sun's position in the sky is still climbing. But by 1pm the recorded temperature was over 80 deg, but the actual ground temperature would have been noticeably higher given that the Sun was now directly overhead and ambient ground temperature would have been collecting momentum, and that momentum would have continued until at least 3pm when the Sun starts to fall far enough that it is not adding more energy to the ground level air.

The open races were first at 10am, then the featured college races at 11am (mens race first, then women at 11:45) Then the lower level races, and finally after that 3pm, the high school races.

So you're going from the most fit athletes competing early on, when the ambient ground conditions are best, then progressing to the least fit athletes when the ambient conditions are worst.

Who's at fault her? No one. Weather happens sometimes.