Mary Cain has OFFICIALLY surpassed Jim Ryun's legacy.

Hey, let's misuse "officially" just as bad as the world misuses "literally" !

coach d wrote:

That's not going to be repeated by Mary, as those records on the womens side are held by obvious dopers.

implying Cain isn't an obvious doper

Let's get real! Mary Cain is performing terrifically, but I don't feel she has nearly the legacy which is equal to Jim Ryan. Remember if you can that Ryan, and Gerry Lindgren both made US Olympic teams as official high school athletes, representing high schools, coached by high school coaches and ran all appropriate high school races. They both won league and state high school races before being invited to run national and earned the times for US Olympic Trials qualifying. They both ran many races against world competitors prior to qualifying for national team considerations. Remember that they ran during times where there were no "world championships" as those began in 1983 in Helsinki. And this fellow, Phil Knight, had not thought of the name "Nike" in 1964, when both Ryan and Lindgren made their first Olympic Teams. There was no pro track. One must understand the value of strength that the Olympic Games have over a "world championships." In Nike contracts with athletes, Nike offers twice the value in an Olympic performance than in a world championship performance. So go figure. There is a very similar contrast to view today between Mary Cain and Jim Ryan. Ryan finished third in the US Olympic Trials in Los Angeles in 1964. He had to finish ahead of Jim Grelle, a great senior miler at the time.

Grelle had won the mile in the Oregon state meet, he won the NCAA mile race in college, and had already run in the 1960 Olympic Games in Rome. Ryan finished third with Grelle fourth. That event opened Ryan up to the running fans. Today, Cain has a similar situation. Tomorrow she is going up against another seasoned veteran in Jennifer Simpson. Simpson won in her state high school meet, was later an NCAA champion and competed in the Olympic Games. If Cain does as well in finishing ahead of Simpson as Ryan did against Grelle, then we can talk the talk as she walks the walk.

Of course Lindgren had graduated high school before making the 1964 Olympic Team in the 10K. But lets be sincere here, Cain is not a high school athlete, does not compete in high school meets. And her dad is a medical doctor I believe. Of course she is a natural athlete by all testing!

g.cooper wrote:

If Cain does as well in finishing ahead of Simpson as Ryan did against Grelle, then we can talk the talk as she walks the walk.

Don't think you can compare. One is the World Championship final the other was the Olympic Trials that gave the right to run in the world championship, in that case called the 1964 Olympics.

Queen Mary will do the best that she can. No matter what, age 17 in the world finals? That has to qualify for GOATdom.

Good post until the end when you revealed yourself as an idiot.

... no movie will outshine Casablanca,

^this

Everybody Comes To Rick's

Whenever I hear a discussion about Mary Cain, Mary Decker comes up. People seem to forget that the late Kimberly Anne Gallagher is the only American woman to win 2 Olympic medals in an event over 400 meters. That's 1 medal more than Jim Ryun and 2 medals more than Mary Decker. Also, that H.S. 1500m record Jordan Hasay broke a couple years ago, it wasn't Mary Decker's, it belonged to Kim Gallagher and the 800 meter record Mary Cain broke this year, it wasn't Mary Decker's, it was Kim Gallagher's.

Let's also remember, Kim Gallagher was a regular H.S. athlete, she ran cross country, all of her high school meets, relays and tripled at just about every meet. Kim Gallagher was running incredible times often with no other athlete near her...you would have to be fool to think Kim could not have run much faster with a dedicated coach and against professional athletes. When Kim ran 800m HSR, it was one of the few times she was able to focus on just one race and had competition and in the race she ran 2 flat, a record that stood for 30 years. What do you think Kim could have run in a 1500m around that time and under similar circumstances or what if she had run another 800m the following week against professional athletes. No shoulda, coulda or woulda is necessary because in her high school career she accomplished basically everything that could be accomplished and against regular H.S. athletes. She went 3 years with out losing a race and set records in just about every event she competed in including relays...there really wasn't much else she could do.

This is not to take anything away from Mary Decker or Mary Cain becasue what they accomplished at such a young age is incredible, but they had opportunities that Kim didn't, which is OK, but lets not forget about Kim Gallagher.

If you want to get serious about this and other similar comparisons, you have to validate the respective performance using other metrics than high school records. For example, Ryun's high school mile time was within 1 second of the then WR. Even if we ignore the Chinese women's times, assuming they were dopers, Cain still needs to run 3:54 or so for the 1500m to match Ryun's high school performance on that metric. She may do that next year, but I doubt it.

So what place did Jim Ryun finish in the Olympic finals after his junior year? Oh yeah, he didn't make the finals.

Cain>Ryun.

Olympics > than World Championships

Jayhawk wrote:

Olympics > than World Championships

Finals>Semi finals

Now we can get real. Cain was the best 17 year old in that race. OK. Simpson did all a front runner could do, short of leaving the field more when she moved into first position. I still compare Cain and Ryan in the settings I previously noted. When Ryan placed ahead of Jim Grelle in that race in 1964 it put Ryan on the map. If Cain had placed ahead of Simpson today, she would have place herself on the world map. She is still the best teenage female distance runner in the US. And her father is still a medical doctor and Salazar is still with Nike, and all is OK. And as for the high jump delaying the start of the woman's 1500, that happens on occasion in track and field meets, even in the Olympics.

Hamilton must not have seen the 1500 today. Cain was never a factor in the race period. Had she been we could continue this silly notion that she could someday pass a legacy of say as Jim Ryan. But for now, Ryan is way ahead of Cain in all regard.

Nothing Special wrote:Like I already said, beating an the 1964 Olympic Champ isn't the same as beating the 2012 one. The competition in Ryun's time was much weaker and had less depth.

clueless

snell at his peak, be it '62 or '64, if given a '70s synthetic & fast wabbit to the bell wouda gone probably

~ low-1'42 / 3'30-flat

( he was a better 800 guy than 1500 )

if in moscow, he'd probably have outsprinted aman for gold & get silver in 1500 behind asbel in that expected slow affair

Jayhawk wrote:BTW... I produced the definitive television documentary chronicling Ryun's running career.

You shoud do an epilogue

Trust me, i'm pretty good at assessing talent & got tools

The '67 Ryun on a '70s synthetic with fast pacer(s) to the bell wouda probably gone

1'39.9 / 3'24.2

( & i'm NO Ryun fan )

BTW do you have full race video of either Ryun's 3'33.1 WR or his 3'38 Dusseldorf run of legendary 36.4 finish ?

She is not at Ryun's level....but she still has the potential....

g.cooper wrote:

Hamilton must not have seen the 1500 today. Cain was never a factor in the race period. Had she been we could continue this silly notion that she could someday pass a legacy of say as Jim Ryan. But for now, Ryan is way ahead of Cain in all regard.

She was more of a factor than Ryun was in the 1964 Olympic final, idiot.

Everybody beat me to it. You have no idea who Jim was. You need to keep dreaming and live your life each day in this minute.

I have film of the 3:33.1... I don't have the Dusseldorf finish. ABC has lost a lot of great video over the years including these two races, although I think Jim finally got his hands on the televised footage of the 1500 world record.

I agree, Jim on a synthetic track would have been under 3:50 in Bakersfield and pretty close to 3:30 in L.A.