HADD Base Training Plan Help

Like was mentioned before if you are in high school or college you are probably better basing a summer program off of the summer of malmo, then the long hadd thread.

Hadd mentions in that thread that he never had good luck with hr training and younger athletes. In my opinion the hadd type of build up is most appropriate for the half marathon or above and really is a plan where you need to get to at least 90 miles a week for it to be truly effective.

If you search the boards you can find Hadd giving guidance to never drop you pace to slower than 5k pace + 3min regardless of what your heart rate monitor is saying.

If you live in FL the HRM is a total waste of time. The heat causes it to spike and you'll be darned near walking in order to hit your zones.

ataglance. wrote:

If you live in FL the HRM is a total waste of time. The heat causes it to spike and you'll be darned near walking in order to hit your zones.

Funny you should ask :)

Actually, I didn't really have any trouble keeping my heart rate at my range yesterday (140-145). It did obviously feel slow (9:50 pace) but certainly wasn't walking or anything.

Now, regarding today's workout, I had to do it earlier than usual, because I have something school related at 6:15 pm.

I just did 3 X 1 Mile Repeats, and again, it wasn't difficult keeping my heart rate where it should be.

Splits/Mile pace/HRM:

0.50/8:55/138 (warm up)

stretches, drills, etc.

Mile 1: 7:03 / 162 (It didn't get to 170s until towards the end of the mile)

0.50/10:53/145

Mile 2: 7:01 (170)

0.50 /10:46/149

Mile 3: 7:09 (172)

0.50 (cooldown, no HR)

Total: 5.00 Miles

I'm going to ice my legs tonight so they can recover

Will keep you all updated this week

Just a quick note regarding the notion that Hadd is all slow running... this is not true. In his "phase 2", he had me doing workouts that I had a hard time handling (because of how fast they were and how little rest was given between intervals). I ran in college at a decent program so it wasn't like I had never run intervals before.

It kind of reminds me about a story I heard once about a post-collegiate runner (a pretty good one) who asked Wetmore to coach him. Wetmore asked this runner to put in 100m weeks for a year and then get back to him. Assuming this story is accurate, would this mean that all Wetmore advocates is 100 mile weeks (and nothing else)? I sort of doubt it.

JEH wrote:

It kind of reminds me about a story I heard once about a post-collegiate runner (a pretty good one) who asked Wetmore to coach him. Wetmore asked this runner to put in 100m weeks for a year and then get back to him. Assuming this story is accurate, would this mean that all Wetmore advocates is 100 mile weeks (and nothing else)? I sort of doubt it.

Very well said.

If we want to build up John Hadd’s training plan, be just base training or whatever training phase, the first aspect we need to understand and apply is that John was a believer in TRAINING INDIVIDUALISATION. Just read this:

2 kinds of runners. Which are you?

You will get the conclusion that one straight Hadd’s training method doesn´t exist.

Hadd got some rich training principles and then, trains each individual one different training approach.

One more point. John taught that HRM is useful and more accurate than lactate meter, and uses it in training As effort control in ever submaximal pace from very easy pace up to 10k pace. John taught that from easy up to 10k pace HRM is a very useful tool, but faster than 10k pace the HRM doesn´t work.

I don´t prescribe to my runners the HRM often, but just in some rare cases, however i agree with John that the HRM is better fit to effort control that the lactate meter. I can say why but it takes a longer posts and is out of this issue.

That's not at all what I asked.

You opined that the HADD system was good because, and I quote, if you "just keep plugging away, you will get faster at every effort level, just like he says."

My point is that this is how EVERY training system is supposed to work.

What training system would NOT have you improve?

Think about it. Seriously.

Sub16_5K wrote:

My coach has the other speedwork taken care of, I'm building a base right now, which is fundamental.(before moving to 5K-specific training, to which my COACH is to train us).

Wow. Four pages of replies and you STILL DON'T HAVE A CLUE.

Does someone need to paint you a picture?

Come on, dude. Either stop running and start studying your reading and comprehension a bit more, or stop thinking and just go run.

"That's not at all what I asked.

You opined that the HADD system was good because, and I quote, if you "just keep plugging away, you will get faster at every effort level, just like he says."

My point is that this is how EVERY training system is supposed to work.

What training system would NOT have you improve?

Think about it. Seriously."

This can not be repeated too many times.

sub 15er wrote:

Sub16_5K wrote:

My coach has the other speedwork taken care of, I'm building a base right now, which is fundamental.(before moving to 5K-specific training, to which my COACH is to train us).

Wow. Four pages of replies and you STILL DON'T HAVE A CLUE.

Does someone need to paint you a picture?

Come on, dude. Either stop running and start studying your reading and comprehension a bit more, or stop thinking and just go run.

Wrong, very wrong.

I DO have a clue and no one needs to paint me a picture.

I'm already out there running (see my plan above in earlier post)

I showed it to my XC coach and she loves it, and wants me to do it

(and being cautious to up my mileage safely)

I will keep you all updated over time, and see how much progress I make.

well, duh wrote:

My point is that this is how EVERY training system is supposed to work.

What training system would NOT have you improve?

Think about it. Seriously.

OK, you're advocating the ground-breaking position that training is supposed to make you improve. I'm not going to try to argue against that.

My point was that I've tried Hadd's program, and had good success with it. In fact, I've had better success with Hadd's system than with other programs I've tried. Since the OP was asking if Hadd's system was a good one, I though he might like to know that I think it is, based on my experience.

By the way, there's sometimes a difference between what something is supposed to do and what it actually does. While all training is supposed to make you faster, in my experience, Hadd's training actually does.

Hi everyone,

Just an update, As I cautiously proceed with this plan, so far, everything's been going well, I did just over 5 miles in 50 minutes yesterday (9:49 pace, 142 avg. HR) and 3.29 miles today (30 min), and feeling good :)

Since Monday, I felt twinges on both my feet (from running at slow pace). Stretched it, iced it, and now they feel much better. They never affected my stride, it was just soreness in the tendons, which only hurt while walking. I also felt sore on my upper hamstring too. Pain's all gone now.

I had a lot of energy since I woke up from a 1 hour nap before the workout. I had trouble keeping HR under 150 a few times, but I averaged at 9:12 pace with 147 BPM (which is perfect, since today I had to stay within 140-150 range) Felt very good.

(My splits were 8:55, then I slowed down to 9:38, and 9:31. I was definitely more steady on the last 2 miles)

I also did my 5 X 100M strides with 30 sec rest after my run (And I will do them before the workout next time as was suggested)

Wow, I know where I need work on now...

HRM: 160-165,

Had a pretty hard time keeping it in that range, it just kept on gravitating to 167!

This happened about 3-4 times during the whole run, so it wasn't that bad but when it happened...

The best part:

Le me looks at Garmin, HR's at 167. Yikes! I slow down. Still at 168...Slow down EVEN more to almost walking, back to 162-ish. Continues with run... speeds up "slightly"...looks at garmin 30 sec later... 167!

*trolled by my own heart*

...I was just tempted to say, SCREW YOU HEART! and sprint like Usain bolt screaming: Are you happy now heart!? LOOK, YOU WANTED FAST?! HERE'S YOUR DAMN SPEED!! AAAHHH! LET'S GO OVER A HILL, AT A FULL SPRINT! WHACHU GONNA DO NOW HEART?! 200 BPM, 250 BPM, *Dies*

All joking aside,

I still averaged at 164 BPM for 5.60 miles in 45 min.

I started at 7:55, but was down to 8:40 pace by end. Heart rate varied each split by 1-2 beats which is normal. definitely need to work more at that effort level.

I think the heat is too much for you to be doing heart rate training as strictly as you are. When you're doing all of your running 3 minutes + slower than your goal pace then something is not right. I think someone mentioned earlier that Hadd said you should never go more than 3 minutes slower than 5k pace.

hey wrote:

I think the heat is too much for you to be doing heart rate training as strictly as you are. When you're doing all of your running 3 minutes + slower than your goal pace then something is not right. I think someone mentioned earlier that Hadd said you should never go more than 3 minutes slower than 5k pace.

You're supposed to go really slow in the beginning. The pace IMPROVES, and then even my SLOWEST runs will be under 5K+3min pace.

And actually, My "Supposed" 5K race pace is around 5:20-5:30 mile pace.

My run today was 8:08 pace, that's about 5K + 2:30 pace, which IS UNDER 3:00 isn't it? :)

As my pace improves, It will slowly come down, and I definitely know I need improvement there.

Look, here are my splits today:

Mile 1: 7:53 152 HR (obviously HR has to climb all the way to 165 first)

Mile 2: 8:03 165 HR (On pace)

Mile 3: 8:04 165 HR (Still on pace)

Mile 4: 8:23 166 HR (BOOM, Improvement needed right there)

Mile 5: 8:47 165 HR (ALMOST A WHOLE MINUTE SLOWER! A WHOLE MINUTE!)

As you can see, I definitely need to improve that. I do let my heart rate go up a few beats (from the heat), but it's not too hot late in the afternoon.

I should be able to run around 7:40-7:50 pace at that HR without slowing down. That's well under 5K + 3 Minute pace.

It'll come down in a few weeks, that's for sure.

Sub16_5K wrote:

Hi everyone,

Just an update, As I cautiously proceed with this plan, so far, everything's been going well, I did just over 5 miles in 50 minutes yesterday (9:49 pace, 142 avg. HR) and 3.29 miles today (30 min), and feeling good :)

Your handle is sub 16 5k, yet you're out running 9:49 pace for 50 mins for your "training"?

Might want to change that handle.

Sub 23 might be more appropriate.

I've read the Hadd documents and am trying his base building myself. I just think that one of the things that many people overlook is that Hadd's athlete Joe was running an average of about 100 miles a week. I don't think you're going to see as much of an improvement on 40 mpw. The point of staying in the low HR range on most of your runs is so that you can run A LOT more.

As much as I like Hadd's base training, I agree with other posters who have said summer of malmo might be a better option for you. I think that you need more of a neuromuscular base in that you need to get your body used to running paces which should be comfortable for an athlete of your caliber (like maybe 6:45 - 7:45 per mile). Once you can comfortably run mileage between 50 and 70 (on doubles), you could try to up the mileage into the 80 - 100 range and use Hadd's approach.

I think, like many of us, you're over thinking this. A specific HR instead of a zone? You should enjoy running not be a slave to the plan and HR.

That said as a 46 year old former D1 hack, I'd focus on getting your mileage up and a tempo run during the summer. I graduated from HS in 84 and my college years were the "low mileage/speed" disaster that really caused the 90s downfall.

So, to answer questions:

1. Full rest

2. HR- keep easy days very easy and run longer if you feel like it and can keep hr low. On hard days do a tempo that gets hr to 185ish for 20-30 min.

3. Start doubles asap. Getting in the habit of getting up and out twice a day more important than how far/hard.

4. Make the 5k your tempo that week and play game to see how evenly you can run it.

5. Low end of zone on easy days.

hey wrote:

As much as I like Hadd's base training, I agree with other posters who have said summer of malmo might be a better option for you. I think that you need more of a neuromuscular base in that you need to get your body used to running paces which should be comfortable for an athlete of your caliber (like maybe 6:45 - 7:45 per mile). Once you can comfortably run mileage between 50 and 70 (on doubles), you could try to up the mileage into the 80 - 100 range and use Hadd's approach.

Thank you guys for the advice, but 80-100 is WAY too much for me, going from 35-40 to 80-100 in 2 months is just asking to overtrain/overdo it. I never ran more than 40-50 mpw before. I might hit 70 around late July on doubles, but no more than that. Also, I don't run a 16, I do an 18 5k, but with a base I could do 16.

Next year for college, I'll certainly run 80-100 mpw. But certainly not this year.

I'm using HADD to SAFELY up my mileage to what is for me "uncharted territories" (40 or above is, since I never ran more than 33 last year) once I'm at upper 50s or low 60s, THEN I'll start running more towards LT threshold at the improved paces, and definitely Summer of Malmo workouts. (This will be around July, morning runs with my XC coach and team and afternoon run by myself)