Do easy runs even do anything?

If you look at the mechanisms for V02, you get down to A-V02 difference. As a concept, it exists because not all of the oxygen you intake is being utilized, and venous oxygen content will never be less than, what, 5%? Are you trying to say that despite oxygen intake being constant (because your lungs aren't any bigger), having more available transportation will reduce that number? I can see how having a higher number of less crowded cars would ease delivery, but that's really just a guess.

That easy runs are a firm part of normal training does not mean that it´s impossible to be successful by cutting down these runs.

Ryan Hall or Ian Syster might be good examples for runners who reduced their mileage for more intensity and more recovery time.

(I ask myself what would happen if someone like Hall would run on just 4 days - always hard?)

their mileage is probably still high.

Hall would run 65 min 1/2 thons with this kind of approach.

Need_speed wrote:

That easy runs are a firm part of normal training does not mean that it´s impossible to be successful by cutting down these runs.

Ryan Hall or Ian Syster might be good examples for runners who reduced their mileage for more intensity and more recovery time.

(I ask myself what would happen if someone like Hall would run on just 4 days - always hard?)

What you fail to properly grasp is that Hall has a DECADE plus of EASY RUNS that allowed him to reduce mileage over the last couple of years.

And as we can all see that performance 'boost' was limited and NOW to regain prior performance levels he needs to reestablish that aerobic base through more EASY runs.

How can you be on this site and know so very little about running? It's really vexing.

I like long easy runs. They help me let go of the tension that accumulates during intense sessions. Most runners run too tensely which i suspect is from not doing this.

op ed wrote:

What you fail to properly grasp is that Hall has a DECADE plus of EASY RUNS that allowed him to reduce mileage over the last couple of years.

And as we can all see that performance 'boost' was limited and NOW to regain prior performance levels he needs to reestablish that aerobic base through more EASY runs.

How can you be on this site and know so very little about running? It's really vexing.

I am not a mother-tongue speaker, so this will be my personal "grammar threshold workout" [you may laugh, ok]. You are right that it needs years to achieve a high level. BUT this high level, achieved by training, depends mainly on your individual genetic capability. It seems to be clear based on research that specifity and intensity in your training regimen play the most important role. Runners are good at running that speed at which they train the most. According to Jason Karp it´s absolutely not clear if only high mileage supports the development. It´s also clear that high mileage may impede the overall quality of someones training (recovery, velocity and so on).

We all agree that someones fitness improves by a cycle of stimulus and recovery/adaption followed by another, stronger stimulus and so on, right? The key questions:

Does it really need years of monster volumes like 120 miles/week (easy runs incl.) to make it possible to cut down in later years? Do you really have to reestablish high mileage after a cut down? Is it possible to do all time quality training, in which the development is caused via increased duration of race pace sessions (easy runs with no noteworthy velocity are deleted)? The latter is hard, so the overall mileage even for marathoners is limited compared to a high mileage training with tons of easy runs to fill up your training logs.

Need_speed wrote:

Does it really need years of monster volumes like 120 miles/week (easy runs incl.) to make it possible to cut down in later years?

Yes. Success at running correlates much better with running volume than any other factor.

The fact that you are not American confirms that you missed what has been said several time in this thread. We Americans tried a low-volume high-quality regime during the 80's and IT DID NOT WORK.

Go the this thread and find a single one that says to not run easy runs:

You won't. You'll actually find the opposite, that's the collective wisdom that has gathered at this site and time after time, the best coaches and athletes demonstrate that high mileage works.

Thanks for the link.

just cutback to 3 days a week with your approach if you feel easy runs have no value..

I can't believe so many intelligent posters can't understand the basics of running physiology.

Need_speed wrote:

According to Jason Karp it´s absolutely not clear if only high mileage supports the development. It´s also clear that high mileage may impede the overall quality of someones training (recovery, velocity and so on).

No one here is suggesting only easy runs. That would be at the extreme end of the bell curve, sitting opposite from your extreme position of eliminating easy running. So far, the vast majority of success has been achieved with mixed intensities, from easy all the way to fast sprints and everything in between.

At this point, if you are unwilling to accept the mountains of empirical data, you should try your own suggested plan for a few years and learn for yourself then let us all know. Good luck.

Hi my name is Michael Schumaker. I believe i don't need to drive a lot to be a good racer.

Hi my name is Phar Lap. I don't believe i need to run a lot to be a good racehorse.

Hi m name is Steve jobs, i don't believe i need to work on computers a lot to be a good programmer.

If a runner thinks he can be a good runner without putting in the miles ...

then he is a lazy azz looking for shortcuts ...

and will fail quickly - 3 years is about all you will improve for ...

just look at Canova's athletes, he gets the best pre-trained specimens on the planet, and within three seasons has completely stopped their improvement

why?

because he cuts into their historical mileage and after three years has compromised their base.

calypsokid wrote:

just look at Canova's athletes, he gets the best pre-trained specimens on the planet, and within three seasons has completely stopped their improvement

why?

because he cuts into their historical mileage and after three years has compromised their base.

that's a blatant lie that's been refuted by HIM numerous times.

why would you just get on here and lie? what's the point?

stop lying. it's no good.

statatician wrote:

calypsokid wrote:

just look at Canova's athletes, he gets the best pre-trained specimens on the planet, and within three seasons has completely stopped their improvement

why?

because he cuts into their historical mileage and after three years has compromised their base.

that's a blatant lie that's been refuted by HIM numerous times.

why would you just get on here and lie? what's the point?

stop lying. it's no good.

actually you are the one lying

you can go and check out the statistics yourself if you want

the IAAF has them all listed, year by year

if i am lying please go and find one of his athletes who has improved in their main event after the third season

i dare you

calypsokid wrote:

actually you are the one lying

you can go and check out the statistics yourself if you want

the IAAF has them all listed, year by year

if i am lying please go and find one of his athletes who has improved in their main event after the third season

i dare you

dare me?

stop your lying and third grade antics and go educate yourself a bit. i'll even help you with your education. you can thank me later by quitting with your lies and general ignorance.

Substitute Gypsy for calypsokid.

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:

I don't understand how is possible to be so dishonest to hide the truth for supporting a theory. Gypsy, you are a real liar, or one of the most stupid person in Letsrun.

At first, I never asked anybody to cancel your posts, for one very simple reason : I don't care if a cheater posts something not true, that is very easy to demolish using real facts.

Secondly, I give you some other example (but are not all, of course) of my athletes that I destroyed, so EVERYBODY CAN SEE HOW DISHONEST YOU ARE.

Sorry if I cant give you example of many athletes I currently coach (such as Silas Kiplagat, Caleb Ndiku, Collins Cheboi in 1500m, Leonard Kosencha in 800, the most part of new Marathon runners, the Ethiopian with whom I work from one year only), because are not yet 3 years I coach them... May be after 3 years you can have reason in the future. Meanwhile, I show because you are dishonest looking at the past (if you want, I can put some other athlete, for example Edwin Soi or Lydia Cheromei, able to last more than 20 years !).

DORCUS INZIKURU (1982)

1999 : 9’15”66 (3000) / 16’05”5 (5000)

2000 : 16’21”32 winning WJCh ahead Defar

2002 : 8’48”81 / 15’18”01 (Bronze Commonwealth Games)

2003 : 2’03”00 (800) / 4’36”05 (Mile) / 8’46”29 (3000) / 9’39”51 (steeple)

2004 : 15’05”30 (5000) / 9’29”30 (steeple, African Record)

2005 : 9’15”04 (World Champion, 8 seasonal victories in steeple, never defeated)

2006 : 9’19”51 (winning Commonwealth Games)

2007-2009 : Stop for motherhood.

2010 : 9’53”02

2011 : 9’54”50

SYLVIA KIBET (1984)

Started with me in Winter 2005/06 after motherhood.

2006 : 4’11”50 (1500) / 8’40”09 (3000) / 15’02”54 (5000) / 31’39”34 (10000) / 1:11’37” (HM)

2007 : 8’43”09 (3000) / 14’57”37 (5000) / 31’44” (10k)

2008 : 4’07”46 indoor / 8’41”82 indoor / 15’00”03 (5000) / 31’50” (10k) – 4th WICh / 4th OG (5000)

2009 : 4’08”57 / 8’43”93 / 14’37”77 / 30’47”20 / 1:09’51” - 2nd WCh (5000)

2010 : 4’05”33 indoor / 8’37”48 / 14’31”91 - 4th WICh (3000)

2011 : 14’35”43 - 2nd WCh (5000)

We always looked for winning medals in top Championships, peaking for that period, without being interested in improving her PB.

FLORENCE KIPLAGAT (1987)

2006 : 15’32”54 (5000) - 2nd in WJCh (5000)

2007 : 4’09”0 (1500) / 14’40”74 (5000) / 31’06”20 (10000)

2008 : Motherhood

2009 : 14’40”14 (5000) / 30’11”53 (10000, Kenyan Record) - World Cross Country Champion

2010 : 4’11”2 / 8’40”72 / 14’52”64 / 1:07:40 (HM) - World HM Champion

2011 : 1:08:02 (HM) – 2:19:44 (Marathon)

2012 : 1:06:38 (HM)

STEPHEN CHERONO (Saaeed SHAHEEN) (1982)

1999 : 3’41”08 (1500) / 7’48”60 (3000) / 5’31”89 (2000 st), World Youth Champion

2000 : 8’16”27 (steeple)

2001 : 3’35”47 (1500) / 7’58”66 (steeple) World Junior Record

2002 : 3’35”79 / 13’11”55 (5000) / 7’58”10 (steeple)

2003 : 3’35”15 / 12’48”81 (5000) / 7’57”38 (steeple) World Champion

2004 : 7’34”67 (3000) / 13’14”65 / 7’53”63 (steeple) World Record

2005 : 7’55”51 (steeple) World Champion

2006 : 3’33”51 / 12’51”98 / 7’56”32 (Winners World Cup in 3000st / 5000)

2007-2008 : Surgery in his left knee

2009 : 7’32”46 (3000)

2010 : 7’43”44 indoor / 13’00”31 (5000) / 8’09”63 (steeple)

He won undefeated from 16.08.2002 till 17.09.2006 in steeple (27 following victories)

MOSES MOSOP (1985)

2002 : 28’40”60 (10000)

2003 : 7’45”70 (3000) / 13’11”75 (5000) / 27’13”66 (10000)

2004 : 7’41”78 / 13’09”68 / 27’30”66 - Selected in 10000m for OG

2005 : 7’42”96 / 13’06”83 / 27’08”96 (bronze medal in WCh with his PB)

2006 : 7’36”88 / 12’54”46 / 27’17”00

2007 : 7’45”83 / 13’07”89 / 26’49”55 (silver medal in WCCCh)

2008 : 28’29” (10k road). Stop track for tendon problems

2009 : Only Cross Country season (winner Kenyan Trials)

2010 : 59’20” (HM)

2011 : 1:12’25”4 (25000m) WR / 1:26’47”4 (30000m) WR / 2:03:06 (Mar) – Winner Chicago

PAUL KOSGEI (1978)

1995 : 8’36”00 (steeple)

1997 : 8’07”69 (steeple) WJR / 28’08” (10k) / 1:05’35” (HM) - 3rd WJCCCh

1998 : 8’07”86 (steeple) / 7’43”68 (3000) / 28’37” (10k) - 3rd WCCCh (short distance)

1999 : 8’07”13 (steeple) - 2nd WCCCh (short distance)

2000 : 7’39”15 (3000) / 13’05”44 (5000) / 27’38”22 (10000) – 3rd WCCCh (short)

2001 : 13’06”29 (5000) / 27’51”87 A (10000)

2002 : 27’44”14 A (10000, WR in altitude) / 27’34” (10k) / 59’58” (HM) – World HM Champion

2003 : 27’21”56 (10000)

2004 : 28’05” (10k) / 1:12’45” (25k) WR

2005 : 1:04’38” (HM) (Malaria, out the most part of the season)

2006 : 27’48” (10k) / 59’07” (HM)

2007 : 28’02” (10k) / 1:01’26” (HM) / 2:09’31” (Mar)

2008 : 59’37” (HM) / 2:09’15” (Mar)

2009 : 1:00’53” (HM) / 2:13’42” (Mar)

2010 : 2:09’00” (Mar)

MARK BETT (1976)

1995 : 13’32”09 (5000)

1996 : 7’52”79 (3000)

1997 : 7’48”50 (3000) / 13’15”97 (5000) / 27’41”14 (10000)

1998 : 7’44”20 / 13’22”36 / 27’18”66

1999 : 8’02”71 / 13’14”27 / 27’38”64

2000 : 7’46”40 / 12’55”63 / 28’15”98

2001 : 7’36”66 / 12’58”72 / 27’42”68

2002 : 7’38”34 / 13’00”38 / 27’50”29 indoor (World Indoor Best)

2003 : 7’53”96 / 13’16”42

2004 : 7’38”86 indoor / 13’07”80 / 27’02”00

2005 : 7’48”36 indoor / 13’43”52 / 26’52”93

2006 : 7’40”06 / 13’07”94

2007 : 7’42”88 / 13’17”45

2008 : 27’53” (10k)

2011 : 1:02’21” (HM)

Mark had a leg shorter than the other of more than 3cm. For that reason, never was able to have continuity in his training longer than 2 months. He competed very few times every year, since we had to use specific training for short periods only in order to avoid problems in his back.

Another example, not Kenyan but not Italian, is with the Maroccan Rakya Maraoui (she became the wife of a French guy, and her full name was

RAKYA MARAOUI-QUETIER (1967)

She arrived in Italy when 19, and in 1986 ran 10000m in 37’33”. After losing several kg, she became an athlete of medium international level, running her PB in Marathon (1995) with 2:28’17” in Berlin.

In 1996 she ran her PB in HM (1:09’29”), in 2000 she won French Championships on track in 10000m in Salisbourg (31’56”1), in 2003 was still able to run for France in WCh (Marathon) with 2:31’23”, and in 2008 (41 years…) she competed for France in European Cross Country Championships.

HERE WAS THE REPLY TO RENATO's FALSE POST.

Onto the list - lets grab IAAF stats for a clearer picture. Now this list is missing one piece of essential information, except in one case. We don't know when you began coaching these people so cannot prove things one way or the other definitively. Perhaps you can add that information you forgot to include, except in that one case. Anyways i will still go ahead as things are pretty conclusive anyway.

FLORENCE KIPLAGAT (1987)

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=k/country=ken/athcode=226599/index.html

---this is the example mo'pak has already pointed out as an example supporting my theory; the stats show this to be true, 3 years. But then you moved her out distances.

STEPHEN CHERONO (Saaeed SHAHEEN) (1982)

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=0/athcode=171720/index.html

---the stats you provided go back to 1999. Did you start coaching him when he was 17? The stats above show he peaks in the steeple, his main event, in 2004 aged 23. His 5k peaked in 2003. We do need to know when he started with you to be more decisive but this looks exactly like a case of early burnout. 23 is young to be stopping improvement is it not?

MOSES MOSOP (1985)

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=0/athcode=188308/index.html

--again we don't know when you started with him but lets say in 2003 at 18. I do remember he stood out one year at the training camps and somehow an Italian agent got him to you. Do you get this service often? I guess this explains how the complaint i hear around is that you cheery pick your athletes. The stats below show he peaked in 3k and 5k in 2006 aged 21. This is very early! It is also 3 years. 2007 went backwards and you began to move him out distance. Again the short 3 year period of improvement at the original events before stagnation ... so you move them out distance. This is a trend that is becoming increasingly clearer.

PAUL KOSGEI (1978)

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=0/athcode=56127/index.html

--- Interesting example. 2000, aged 22 saw him peak in 3k and 5k and seemingly peak in 10k, but 2003 saw a new 10k peak, as he was moving out distance now yes? His 10k road still from 2002 though. Later he ran a 209 marathon in 2008 aged 30. This probably led you to see he would have been better off going longer at a younger age. You have applied this lesson well to the athletes that have come since him. This moving out distances at younger and younger ages ... Still this example only shows a long career, not development at the original event/s past 3 years. Why did he stop improving at his original distances? I guess this question can be asked about most of your athletes.

MARK BETT (1976)

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=0/athcode=21169/index.html

---good story about working around his physical problem, but he stopped improving at 3k and 5k so early again. The stats below show 5k pb in 2000 aged 24 and 3k in 2001 aged 25. 10k continued to improve to 2005 as he moved out distances and ended up running some half marathons, but no marathons. Maybe this example supports the experience of kosgei above. Still it is hard to say anything in this case because each year might have seen his problem worsen in the second half of his 20s. But then again perhaps not being able to train consistently saw his career lengthen more than the norm. When did you start with him?

RAKYA MARAOUI-QUETIER (1967)

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/country=fra/athcode=115208/index.html

---first question is when did you begin with her and what exactly was your involvement over those 22 years o your involvement with her. First i like this sort of career, even moreso from someone not at the top level, however, we again see the loss of her original events, those shorter faster ones that your athletes seem to stop doing fairly quickly and seem to stop improving in after 3 years.

DORCUS INZIKURU (1982)

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=0/athcode=170929/index.html

---another moving up distance example, 3k pb in 2003 aged 21 an 5k in 2004 aged 22, both never improved on. Moving out

to steeple saw a pb in 2005 in her third year of racing the event. Almost the purest example in this list of someone who peaked early and performed at a lower level ever after.

SYLVIA KIBET (1984)

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=0/athcode=171450/index.html

---here we could have a winner. 4 seasons of improvement is this true? 2010 peaking in most events but 2011 backwards and then career over? Anyway this sole example proves me wrong and her is someone improving in their 4th season.

I'm glad i put the effort into this. The above list not only further proves my point it expands it a little. It more clearly highlights the moving out of distances aspect to Canova's approach. Still, when it comes to the shorter faster distances, the ones requiring a higher degree of athleticism for success, the Canova approach doesn't seem to get anywhere. When it comes to marathons the jury i guess is still out. Bring on Mosop's next few marathons.[/quote]

how many names are you posting under now?

no, the post merely proves how you were lying, just like I said.

and now you've taken your lying to a new level by twisting known facts to try to suit your lie.

classic failure.

i'm anonymous just like you

look i'm sorry if you love Canova but the IAAF facts don't lie and m analysis of them is not flawed. If it is show me where. If you can't then i guess you have nothing more to say.

I used these stats to show my point and Canova gave up defending himself as he saw the facts and the facts don't lie.

Sure he is a great coach i don't deny that. But he is not a master coach. If he was he wouldn't be making this 'classic' mistake. A mistake so classic, so broadly spread, that Lydiard and Cerutty both warned against it and designed systems to avoid it.