Drug Cheat Abderrahim Goumri finally caught!

Left Said Fred wrote:

That doesn't bring in money.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

Did you just call 17/18 year old Kenyans 'young athletes' Renato?

Plenty of 25 year olds have been on EPO I'm certain, why are you using these guy's age as a reason why they wouldn't?

I wonder how for these guys would go? Do you think we'd still see 25-30 year old guys in a U16 or U14 event like we do in the U20 and U18 champs?

Can we start taking bets on a 'getting caught' timeframe for this guy?

I hope many more drug cheats are caught before the London Olympics. Some are obvious while watching the GP meets.

Avocado's Number wrote:

TLW wrote:

Athletes of that caliber (IE; East Africans), in the modern age (not the 1960s like you brought up with Clarke) utilizing fast tracks, modern training principals, rabbits and financial incentives dropping 45 seconds off the 10k world record. It is obvious that EPO was used and in the span of 5 years, 45 seconds slashed from the record.

So you acknowledge that, in the 1990s, there were higher-caliber East African athletes, running on fast tracks with rabbits, financial incentives, and modern traning methods, yet you choose not to explain their superior performances on any of those bases, but instead based on an unsubstantiated accusation of EPO use, which you regard as "obvious." Hmmm....

And what about K. Bekele's performances after 2000? How do you explain his performances?

Bekele's performances did not change because of the drug tests. They just found a way around the drug tests, nothing else. How about blood transfusion and new undetectable drugs? Did the drug tests stopped the BALCO athletes from breaking records or winning golden medals in the Olympics?

NativeSon wrote:

There you go.

Seriously, there is a difference between Moroccans and Ethiopia.

Exactly

Well, there you go. Canova (who is a doctor) stayed with Kemboi (in his room) for 50 days and "discovered a quality" nobody knew he had and voila' ... he is a 26:30 runner.

It clearly (from this evidance) is the coaching and the "discovery" of things that makes people 50 seconds faster than the greatest 10k runners of all time in the 70's and 80's.

The 400m WR has not improved 2 seconds (like you would expect) during the time in question and the 800m has barely improved at all compared to what the 1500, 3k, Steeple, 5k, 10k and Marathon. But don't let teh facts get in the way of your opinion.

Go to bed Peter Winter

The 400m of all events is probably wont drop drastically because of the nature of the race. Combining raw sprint speed with endurance the way that event does is the same reason Rudisha hasn't crushed 800m record.

If you don't understand what coach Canova is saying when discovered quality with his athletes speed then you truly don't understand coaching at all and I feel sorry for any athlete you dare attempt to assist with your *knowledge*.

I still don't see why its so confusing for people to understand that Africa and a majority of other Eastern nations will be better until the world decides to go through another running boom like it did in the 70s.

Football,Basketball don't even require you to be at a comparable competitiveness level as Rupp has been in the 1500 simply because the sport carters to a larger supporting role for all athletes. Each team in Football can have a 53 man roster each game, this doesn't include the players they're playing to be on the practice squad day in and out.

Why would I even attempt to try and make what Rupp,Hall or any of our other top paid distance guys make when I can match that simply being a kicker in the NFL or a bench jockey in the NBA?

Same with soccer, the best players in our MLS league are Foreign while our best Americans are in Europe. If Galen Rupp dumped Alberto and went and trained in Kenyan/Ethiopia with some of their big name athletes. He'd either die of pollen or run a 12:4X

Renato Canova wrote:

(may be somebody can have his blood level "dancing", but I can bet are weak athletes, supposing to change their level using drugs, something that NEVER can happen), of course you can think again that the biological passport is a joke, etc etc.....

Do you not believe that Rashid Ramzi 'changed his level', as you put it, through drugs? I had thought that was evident. And if you do concede that Ramzi could do this, then why would Kenyans and Ethiopians not be able to?

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:

supposing to change their level using drugs, something that NEVER can happen)

Cathal Lombard.

I'm proud they finally made a decision with passports, probably has to do with ashendons public hissy fit recently

I don't know you personally, but I do know that you are a very smart guy. One of the most well-educated on these boards, or anywhere for that matter. I seem to remember that you went to TWO very prestigious schools.

Based on how thoughtfully and intelligently you write on here I can see that you are, at the very least, a VERY smart individual.

I don't want to argue this point, because I did it 10-14 yrs ago over and over on the OLD Darkwing Track listserver. Track had not suffered so many drug cheats at that time and there were still people who believed in the suspicious people like Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, C.J. Hunter, Regina Jacobs, Eddy Helleybuyck, etc.

There were plenty of internationalists from other countries that were suspicious too, but there was not testing in place (Pre-2000) to stop them. I was a distance runner FIRST from 11 yrs old, starting around 1979, and then I took up cycling later. I saw what was happening in cycling where they take a LOT more stuff and had 80-130 race days per year, and even though the testing was hit-or-miss in the 80s ... they caught people.

Anyway, now we know that nearly all successful people in T and F were dopers (the Americans who tested positive but were never sanctioned, the high profile people like Linford Christie and Ben Johnson, and the many people above who were caught). If you have been around the sport for this long and read the TaFNews interviews from the 70s, the info is RIGHT THERE FOR YOU. The athletes talk all about what steroids they use, used before and plan to use and what effect the "new" testing is going to have.

When asked about doping, guys like Frank shorter and Marty Liquori have been very upfront about how prevalent it was in the 70s (Marty specifically says that they didn't have the same technology)

from cohenrunning.com ...

"MLiquori -- When they ran the second half of the 1972 Olympic 1,500 meters in 1:49 with a similar strategy like Jim and I had in the ‘Dream Mile,’ I was one of the announcers and was disappointed to not be in the race when I saw how it developed. When the race was over the producer said, ‘Okay we’re going to a commercial in three, two, one.’ I took off my headset and said, ‘Aw, shit.’ The producer said, ‘Just because I said ‘one’ didn’t mean we were off the air.’ Luckily we were. Looking back I don’t think anyone would have beaten Lasse Viren in the 5,000 meters in 1972 or 1976 as his scientific prowess was way ahead of us."

I also have several friends who were top runners and road racers in Boulder around 1978 to 1988 and they told me it was a fact of life. I have also heard from some Americans that they knew Americans that doped (they saw them do it and/or accompanied them to the doping doctor) and that some top foreigners (WR level) confessed that they doped. I will not betray those people and name the names as there is no use in throwing these people under the bus.

Add in the people who have been caught over the years in the 60s, 70s and 80s (before the EPO age), and those who admitted using but were not caught, and it is perfectly clear that drugs have been in use in the USA since 1960 at the latest. Different drugs started in different time frames, but steroids were in use (in the USA and elsewhere) by 1960, Medalists have admitted it. stimulants have been in use for almost as long, maybe longer. Blood packing has been possible for a long time, but in use for sure since the 1960s. None of this is my OPINION, it is all there for those who are willing to look for it. It has all been documented and it has been admitted.

I am getting off on a rant that I said I would not, but my point is (and I DO have one) just a few simple facts (again NOT my opinion):

1) there have been athletes in the WEST who were WR-level and Medal-level using drugs since at least 1960. They continue right up until this year.

2) EPO was introduced and MANY cyclists got caught for it (in different ways - some tested positive, some were caught with it, some had high hematocrit, some admitted use - like the FESTINA Affair) over the last 20 years.

3) No sane person can keep saying that EPO doesn't yield big benefits. Why would so many skiers and cyclists and runners use it and risk getting caught, and then ultimately GET CAUGHT. People like J.R. (clearly insane) and Renato Canova (clearly deluded and has an incentive) can keep saying it. But it is like saying that the sun will rise in the West tomorrow, nobody is buying it.

4) now, we have established that doping has gone on somewhere in the world for AT LEAST 50 years in TnF. We have established that EPO, steroids, amphetamines, and the like WORK. We have established that many people in TnF have been caught cheating (I won't rehash the names but Goumri is just the latest in a long line). Many of them have been at the top end of the sport (Mourhit, Ramzi, Goumri, etc.)

5) Accepting these facts, why would anyone suppose that drugs are used, drugs are beneficial, that EPO is especially useful for distance runners and distance runners have been proven to use it (to great effect!) ...

but that the greatest distance runners of the EPO generation by and large don't use it?

Like I said, I have no dog in this fight, I don't care whether you believe it or keep believing otherwise. I know that you are very intelligent NO MATTER WHAT you decide. That will not change either way.

However, I am consistently amazed when people say, "based on the available evidence I can't see how you can say that a certain group doped." Based on the available evidence (including admissions/confessions, positive tests, and getting caught with dope) I can't see how anyone reaches any other conclusion.

ugh can they please just legalize all drugs.

you are not very convincing with you incoherent posts.

Goumri was caught and he has some fast times. Deal with it.

Claiming (in earlier posts) that EPO doesn't help, makes

you look silly. It is like claiming antibiotics doesn't help

fighting bacterial infections. Why do you even bother

to post on an insignificant American site when people keep insulting you and don't know anything about the sport?

also the 400m and 400mh records would

not be same without epo .

we know the cut of points for old distance era

was low 13 mins for 5000m as an example .

why as dealing with low living altittude athletes and

blood transfusions as doping method and clearly

not as good as epo.

blood packing was more effective for middle distances and events with more heavy lactate build up ,and also altitude issue not as important to these events.

but still nothing on epo .

with epo see the likes of dieter bauman being low altitude

and getting down to 12.55

now epo and living at altitide athlete you know the limits

for 5000m

if had used blood transfusions imagine mid 12.45,s

but never was neassary or as practical to use.

with epo can administer anywhere in toilet ,middle of nowhere in africa compared to transfusion take abit of knowhow with storing ,etc.

the difference for me with living at altitude is how

well muscles use oxygen for any given hematocrit ,compared to low living

and know that 12.55- 13.05 is definitely within clean range

for elite higher altitude guys.

If it weren't for drugs, Morocco would be another Libya in the T&F world.

And also cannot compare the quantity of top times ran over years

to nowadays ,

as with modern running factories in ethoipia, kenya producing nearly 10 fold if not up to 50 fold more elite athletes emerging for every distant event compared to even

5-7 years ago from that area .

hard for europeans or americans to compete with sheer numbers

of them being produced and to even get a foot in the door .

and so getting said increase in numbers of 12.55 - 13.05

races .

as for the leap in times that rupp and farah are producing suggests

a new endurance drug like aicar ,etc

because if was epo or new epo variant know that rupp likely maxout

around 26.50 for 10000m if just epo. and epo use alot less , so me thinks not epo .

something that gets more oxygen to muscles similar to what

advantage higher altituders have as quality .

so keep times down but not as much as epo would have .

so in way a level playing field for us lower altituders

the limits of such ped are less than epo for distance events

but can be just as good if not better in events like

steeplechase , and better for marathon especially end of marathon .

newname wrote:

However, I am consistently amazed when people say, "based on the available evidence I can't see how you can say that a certain group doped." Based on the available evidence (including admissions/confessions, positive tests, and getting caught with dope) I can't see how anyone reaches any other conclusion.

Well said.

trollism wrote:

NativeSon wrote:

There you go.

Seriously, there is a difference between Moroccans and Ethiopia.

Yeah. The IAAF will happily catch a Moroccan because everyone knows they're filthy anyway.

The won't catch an Ethiopian or Kenyan because they're whiter than white in the eyes of casual followers and naive howling fanboys.

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" ... They wont catch an Ethio or a Kenyan because they.re whiter jthan white in the eyes of casual followers....."

Trollism,

Are you living up to your name with this statement or is this, ACCORDING TO YOU, a statement that you'd like us to take seriously?

Are you serious?

By this I mean, did you mean what you said?