Tadese and the Marathon - I don't get it!

It was a great post. What's sad is that someone with the talent of ZT has to go through this when so many before them have made the same mistakes years ago, Geb being a great example as Antonio noted.

If I were coaching ZT I'd start by showing him Bill Rodgers' training logs where he was running 10 in the AM and 16 PM... seven freaking days a week. Some days he'd do 13 and 16, an "easy" day (if not a complete day off) would be a single 20 miler! Next thing you know he's running 160-180 miles/week... routinely!

Seriously, the first thing he should see is that before BR was running fast he was running FAR. As a marathoner the very first goal needs to be volume- you need to see how much you can handle- and you can only do that by running slow and comfortably. If you make your goal to run 140-160 MPW then you quickly realize the only way you can do that is by running at a slower pace. The annals of running marathons are full of runners who failed because they ran too fast in training, and therefore didn't allow their bodies to adapt to more efficient fuel usage. As someone here once said- it's not so much fat-burning as "glycogen sparing".

Euro Runner

Some misunderstand what i say about Tadesse poor marathon results.

I didn´t comment on mileage in my Tadesse analysis.

1/I did comment it´s an absurd to think that Zersenay Tadesse one runner with thin body tailed for the long distance, very consistent in his competition performances, that did as pbs 3000m: 7:39.93, 5000m:12:59.27, 10000m: 26.37.25, Half Marathon: 58:23 WR, got no speed pace to run the marathon at a sub 2h05m as Ross Tucker suggests.

2/the main reason for his miss of success at the few marathon attempts he did, is wrong training approach for the marathon distance event. He trains too fast at specific workouts, mostly done in 5k to 10k 15k intervals or fast continuous runs (at the final part of the daily aerobic runs) always fast continuous runs fast that his HM pace. Because he got very good aerobic system, great pace economy at aerobic paces of high level, great anaerobic threshold pace, then on the daily runs he runs also faster than he should. he runs often at faster than marathon pace.daily runs are done often at sub 3:00min per kilo pace for 10-12-15k twice a day.

3/The consequence of this wrong marathon training, take him for a energy plateau, that he uses quite the same energy at a his HM pace ( 2:50/kilo pace) that at his marathon target pace (2h05m to 2h06m that is 3min/kilo pace) and at slower paces (3:10/kilo pace) his energy spent doesn´t last much longer than one HM to 30k distance and he soon is depleted that he can´t stand marathon pace in one marathon run. This is the real reason that in this last London marathon edition, despite HE DECIDES FOR A EASY PACE STRATEGY, with the hope that a slow pace in the first miles up to 30k (the wall) able him to run the last 1/3 of the marathon event at fast pace that he didn´t in the early attempts. Not lack of marathon speed, but high energy waist that lead to energy depletion soon that what would be optimal. Tucker comment that he got no speed pace it´s an absurd.

Finnaly, i know that Tadesse coach got no idea what is the marathon training. he is a young guy that doesn´t major training background skill to train the super fast runner that is Tadesse, but he had the opportunity to coach Tadesse, that was a great runner before to be coached by Bravo.

Once again, you name Claudio Bernardelli and Renato Canova, as both did similar marathon training what isn´t true either. They do different training intensity and different training mileage. Renato just wanted to be generous to Claudio when he posts about Claudio, he did understood Claudio is a promise italian coach, very different temper than Gabrielle Rosa that i think that Renato doesn´t appreciate Rosa temper.

antonio, how do you know how Tadese trains? have you seen him in training, or seen his logs yourself?

david okeyo wrote:

antonio, how do you know how Tadese trains? have you seen him in training, or seen his logs yourself?

All that. I´ve read some training schedules online and spanish popular magazines. I read Bravo´s Tadesse coach articles and thesis of Ph in Physical Education which the subject is about distance training, i knew about other runners that told me they watch Tadesse training where Bravo and Tadesse uses to train in Spain, that are cities of Caceres (spain Estremadura province near Portugal frontier with Spain), Segovia and also Sierra Nevada, that is a place near the north of Madrid that is in altitude where the portuguese runners and triathlon athletes they go to train because Portugal doesn´t altitude places to train.

Finnaly you might know that Tadesse did the HM world record in Lisbon and in 2 occasions Tadesse did the Lisbon HM, and Lisbon is the place i live, there the days before the HM i had the opportunity to share some conversation with this outstand Eritrean runner about training and he reveals me the essential of his training, be the regular training, and the marathon program. He is kind of shy but very humble and polite like the real champions used to be.

In our hotel conversation i did reveal that because the past failures in then marathon attempt, this 2012 London edition, the main strategy is a very conservative start, voluntarily decision and not miss of speed as Ross Trucker imagines.

Finally i want to confirm that what he trains it´s the kind of training method that is very common in spain top class distance runners. Fabian Roncero, i guess it´s still 10000m, HM and marathon Spain recordist does train on the same profile that Tadesse still does. Basically they do a 3 day microcycle: first day: hard/fast workout (track intervals mainly), second day: easy run, third day: outdoor fast run, increasing the pace in the fast part, what is negative split, from easy aerobic pace move to threshold pace to HM-10mile to 10K and faster than 10k run in the final part with fast/hard continuos run or long intervals. This 3 day cycle is repeated on and on.

hello, my name is Jeronimo Bravo, Tadeses coach ,just since 2002, 1 month after he has started running, no training, running...im coaching him since then and I'm the guilty, of all his good and bad results since 2002...for example all his 11 individual medals in majors championships...ALL

i don't have the honour of meet Mr Antonio Cabral,i can't remember him because i never meet or speak with him...so I'm not sure if all the information that he have about me and my work is from...read a magazine where i write for recreational runners...

im 40 years old,not so young, but no very old...

im coaching marathon runners since 2001,with good and bad results,athletes like Yonas kifle since 2000,,YAred asmerom since 2004, cutbert nyasango since 2002, teklemariam medhi since 2007,kidane tadese since 2004....and many spanish athletes who are in the national team since the youth age until masters....

i don't know when Mr Cabral spoke with TAdese in Lisbon, because any time Tadese was there i was also there...anyways, i think you don't have idea about what we had done...of course i did some mistae because i still thinking TAdese is able to run fast 2h10...but, everything you said about what we did isn't correct...

about where we had training,,,funny, i was born in CAceres, true,but I'm living in MAdrid since i was 2,5 years old¡

we had training in MAdrid, and Asmara(eritrea)where I'm sure never see you there...in Segovia we did just 1 month of training on 2005¡ never back there after that...and he did in the GNR 59.05...not bad...

I'm sure that you have many questions about our works and I'm open to give you all the answers that you need...

sorry for my english

obrigado and hope meet you soon and chat or discuss about training...

Jeronimo, why do you schedule fast half-marathons only a month before big marathon races for Tadese? It's not like he does those half marathons as training runs because, for example, in Lisbon this year he started at WR pace!

Do you believe he can be in peak shape for both distances within a short time period like that?

Has Tadese decided to focus on the 10000m for the Olympics now after his performance in London?

hello

this year Zersenay didn't try break a record, if you watch the TV you can cheek that he's not following the pacemakers and just keep his own pace,,,and won...but over 59.30...is a kind of test, but, he was not training for Half marathon...just thinking in London,,,with bad result but in London

thiking in the Olimpics i have ti take the decision, after speak with him as we are doing since almost 10 years ago, but ,also before London marathon we don't have decide yet the event...

he will be a great marathon runners...nobody in the world knows better that me to him...we had many years,all his career, and,in my Short experience coaching marathon(antonios opinion) i know so difficult is run well this distance...im the coach of one more marathoner; Yonas Kifle, who was virtual bronze medal on the km 39.5 and finished walking...marathon is different and maybe because this is because is the most special event...

is my first time writing in a public board,i don't like too much,,,,but i can't understand like people can say whatever he likes without any idea about me or TAdese¡because if he really knows something about us ,he must knows, for example, as all the people in this world, organizers,sponsors, agents.IAAF. spanish athletics federation...knows that we are working,(coaching him) 10 years ago¡

tadese will be a very good marathon runners...im sure, even with a coach like me¡

also to be in the olipmics in marathon i have a problem...im coaching 2 more eritrean athletes with a time this year fastes of him,plus one more who now I'm not coaching...so, he's not in the top 3 of his country,,,,but...will let you know ...affter tell to him and my others athletes of course¡

thanks for asking

ventolin baiter wrote:Let me get this straight:

(1) IF the race had been run in Brussels/Hengelo (it wasn't), and

(2) IF Tadesse had been able to open up a bigger gap (he wasn't), and

(3) IF he'd been able to maintain the hot pace the rest of the way and thereby run the kick out of Sihine and Bekele's legs (he wasn't),

Then you think Tadesse would have won and was in world record shape. Lol. OK, let's nevermind the race that was actually run on the track instead of in our minds. I mean, come on, Tadesse opened up a big lead in the MIDDLE of the race!

you obviously didn't see the whole race or appreciate it

z-man made all the running in that race to nearly 9k - he led for 6 - 7k which killed him off at the end in that heat/humidity

put it this way so you might understand

if kennster & z-man had their races juxtaposed exactly, kennster, who i'm sure no one doubts was in close to 26'20 shape that day, wouda had significant chance of blowing up just like z-man did & what kennster actually did in mombasa

ventolin baiter wrote:Alright, let me be serious for a second. Tadesse is bad ass, and he was obviously making Bekele hurt. But given how badly he died, it seems obvious that Tadesse went for broke too early. He was running that 10k like an 8k. Bekele knew he couldn't hang with that pace so he let the gap open. The problem was that Tadesse couldn't hang with that pace either so he just ended up hurting himself. Again, valiant effort, but it wasn't an 8k. You have to pace yourself for the entire distance. Opening up a lead early then dying simply means you went too hard too fast, so that is how the gap opened.

Again - refer to the finish of that race. Tadesse was nowhere to be found. A guy in world record shape should have been fighting with Sihine and Bekele on the backstretch.

you still don't get it

kennster has prided himself on never letting anyone dominate him in a 10k & never letting anyone get a gap on him unless it was total suicide - go watch '03 when geb ran sub-13 in last 5k in an attempt to break kennster who stuck to him like a limpet

z-man didn't run any suicidal km - running mostly 2'44/2'45 & that 8th km wasn't suicidal, it was 2'41.9 ( NOT a 2'38/2'39 ) but for a brief period kennster coudn't respond & gap grew to almost 10k - if you've watched nearly his whole career you wouda realised he never liked this to happen except that he coudn't handle the incredible hard sustained pace of z-man

obviously z-man coudn't handle the pace either at the end, but if you'd watched the whole race, you wouda realised that race was on a total knife-edge at that crucial 10 - 20s in the 9th km

It seems like mr Cabral can go and hide himself somewhere. All that he wrote on this thread was nonsense, lies and fabrications. From now his credibility is absolutely zero.

In your opinion why has Tadese not yet mastered the marathon?

hello

well, if i can give you a answer about this question problaby you don't have to make this question....

im not sure yet...

2009 he got flu in AMMAN where we don't like to take part and have to stay on bed...we wrongly decide anyways go London

2010,he missed his drinks and can't drink until 20km...maybe inexperience...but he keeps 2h05 pace i think till 38km...

2012.training was focused in marathon since all the season, increase longs runs(longer 39km and now under 3, of course and no just 1 or 2 long runs)

increase km, reduce intensity and times of break ,

he got the drinks

we decide a 2.58-300 pace also you can see on the london website but he felt bad afters 36km...its true that had problem in his a chiles tendon in last 5km....information that isn't the results¡ but thats true..and don't allow him to made correct steps and go faster...

we have to think about it yet...sorry,but i can't say ,right now, where is the problem,hope find out soon

Best of luck

Unless Bravo is an imposter. Could happen here on LR!!

believe me...im who I'm say I'm...jeronimo bravo rodriguez(in spain we have two surnames)and...if you see my profile of Facebook you can see my picture,for example with zersenay and a bronze olympic medal over his shoulders...

ah¡ in the picture I'm wearing a red polo shirt¡

jeronimo Bravo wrote:

hello, my name is Jeronimo Bravo, Tadeses coach ,just since 2002, 1 month after he has started running, no training, running...im coaching him since then and I'm the guilty, of all his good and bad results since 2002...for example all his 11 individual medals in majors championships.

Jeronimo Bravo, welcome to the message board! I am very impressed that you, Zersenay Tedese's coach is posting here. Thank you very much for sharing your ideas. This is very special for me, as I don't have the honor and opportunity to meet such famous coaches in person, as yourself, Renato and Antonio. I hope your experience here turns out to be more enjoyable.

jeronimo Bravo wrote:I'm...jeronimo bravo rodriguez(in spain we have two surnames)and...

as his coach, can you offer an opinion ?

i believe his 26'37pb is nonsense & that in his 58'23wr or maybe even in osaka he was in maybe

26'15 - 26'20 shape

how fast do you reckon he was ?

He shouldn't reply to you because if he disagrees with you, you will lambast him and say that because of your wonderful calculator you know best.

ventolin^3 wrote:

jeronimo Bravo wrote:I'm...jeronimo bravo rodriguez(in spain we have two surnames)and...

as his coach, can you offer an opinion ?

i believe his 26'37pb is nonsense & that in his 58'23wr or maybe even in osaka he was in maybe

26'15 - 26'20 shape

how fast do you reckon he was ?

Thank you for taking the time to post on this thread - it's an honor. In the study done by Lucia et al in 2007, it mentioned that his "easy" training pace was 3'20"/km (5:21 mpm). Was that still the case for his marathon training?