HOW COULD STEVE CRAM RUN 1:42 WITH ONLY 49.1 400m SPEED?

Alberto Juantorena 1976:

800: 1:43:50

400: 44:26

Just Saying! :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Juantorena

you offer nothing

noah had 1'44.4pb but split 1'44.6 off high-49 en-route to 2'11.9wr

does your peabrain think his 1'44.4pb was his true pb that day ???

thanks for that 3rd grader "analysis"

moron

no one here believes cram's 49.1 was an accurate reflection of his career pb

except it appears - you

do you also think hicham's 1'47pb was his likely to be an accurate reflection of his 800 ability when he ran 3'26wr ???

idiot

learn to read

i've already told you paula's 4'05pb made no sense when she went 8'22/30'01 & calculator says 4'00

then she states 4'01tt in her book

you think i am making up an exception ???

go read her book

much ado about nothing here. no question that cram @ 400m was good for 47 mid and probably a bit under 47.

there is the calculation that steve cram could run 46 mid at his absolute peak.

there is the statement by cram that he ran 48.1 training time trial and a similar relay result. who knows too if he ran 440 yards?

there is the assertion that unless you do the time then your best time is your very best time.

it seems to me that the formula guy got his formula from examining many hundreds of athletes and results and has found a kind of interpolation function that is somewhat a best fit for the data. this being the case, the formula is useful. the examples where the formula breaks down, the creator needs to look at that and perhaps rework the interpolation equation.

the 400m time trial for any athlete does not indicate maximum speed in any case. if jeremy wariner ran a 45.0 time trial i think he'd be impressed and say that 43 mid was ON - given the right race and conditions.

see coe and crams times (definitely not peak) for the great trinity court were in the same league as few 45-46 second 400m men who. of note too is that cram lost by 0.3 seconds to a proven 46 second man, who probably was good for 45 mid at peak as well. see the great trinity court run.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Great_Court

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cambridgeshire/360/trinity_college_court.shtml

Don´t you get that in relays you get a flying start (I doupt that they put Cram to the first lap...) and possible "rabbit" ahead of you to break wind. The 4x400m WR does 43,5 average per lap, and remember that first lap is not done by flying start, and no "rabbit" ahead of you. The relay split times are crazy fast when comparing them to runner´s 400m pb.

And Cram said himself that he couldnt never break 48. He was an endurance based runner, not speed. That´s the reason behind his race pacing close to even splits.

Clearing the bs up wrote:

Red from Oaxaca wrote:

Didn't Jim Ryun once run a 440 leg of the mile relay in 46 point? Am I mis-informed? Am I correct in thinking Cram could probably run a faster 400 than Ryun?

Interesting that both Cram and Ryun rank near the top of all time but both had to settle for Olympic Silver.

46.9 440y on a cinder track after running a 3:58 mile. And no, you are incorrect in thinking Cram could run a faster 400 than Ryun. Jim ran the last lap of a 1500 in Dusseldorf in 1967 in 49 high. No one has done that since. Jim had blazing speed.

No, it was printed in T&FN at the time as 50.6. It added, "(One report gave his last 400 as 49.7)".

The 49.7 was hearsay and people have clung to that and made it fact. As there is no video evidence of the race then we can only go with the 50.6.

Gonzales ran a last lap in 49.9 in the European Cup in 1987, beating Cram. And Gonzales certainly wouldn't have beaten Coe or Ryun over 400m. There isn't a great deal of correlation between an athlete's 400 pb and their ability to kick at the end of a race. Much depends on the overall pace of the race and the pace just prior to the last lap. If Ryun's 3rd lap in 67 was 60 secs, then it puts his last lap into perspective.

All tracks in Britain in the early 80s were 400m. They hadn't run 440yds since the 60's.

Using the great trinity court run as evidence to their 400m ability is a nonsense. The athletes have to practically stop at 3 or 4 corners. Someone like Lord Burghley (who was certainly slower than Coe as a 400m runner) who completed the run within the chimes, would have practised it and it would have come down to technique.

Cram has stated he couldn't run an open 400m in 47 like Coe and Ovett. He was really pleased with a 47.6 relay leg in 84. When asked about his speed in October 1985, after his great record breaking season, he stated that he'd manage to run a 400 tt in 48.1. He didn't do speed work throughout the year like Coe did, so his tt would almost certainly have been in the summer. It would have been something he would probably have done several times over the course of the summer for comparison. If he'd run faster then he would have stated so in the interview in October! That 48.1 was probably hand timed, so more like 48.3 if electronically timed.

The evidence comes straight from the horses' mouth, yet some on here continue to claim a 400 ability about 1.5 secs faster than what he actually did.

LOL.

You really are a deluded fool. Despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you dismiss everything that contradicts your calculations and then back them up with the line that "most 1:42 guys have pbs between 46 and 47" or something along those lines anyway.

I won't bother to respond to individual points you have made, but simply add that they are all wrong.

you idiot

how many times do you have to be told that all he coud manage was 3'33.1 & no 800 below 1'45 that year

of course he'd be proud of a 47.6 relay if that's all he coud run for 800/1500

no

you are guessing

you have no idea when or how many 400tt he ran in '85

you have no idea whether he ran 1 or more

you have no idea whether he ran it right before oslo or zurich or in March

you also have no idea about cram's speedwork

the assertion he didn't do speedwork thruout the year is nonsense

he sharpened up to a peak with those 23s 200s, which we don't know were reps or not

if reps, he couda expected 22-flat in an open 200, which is consistent with a mid-46 off high-22/high-23 splits - quite feasible considering butch reynolds who didn't have cram's over-distance endurance had a 20.46pb & ran 43.2wr off 21.4/21.8

deanouk wrote:LOL.

You really are a deluded fool. Despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you dismiss everything that contradicts your calculations and then back them up with the line that "most 1:42 guys have pbs between 46 and 47" or something along those lines anyway.

I won't bother to respond to individual points you have made, but simply add that they are all wrong.

moron

there's a quote in archives that hicham when asked about his 400 ability, when retired, said

"about 48"

that coud mean anywhere between 48.0 - 48.9 & again we don't know when or what part of season

most woud find it incredulous he coudn't go at least 48-flat at his peak, which means his 400 ability woud be very close to a claimed 47.5 for cram

if not dissimilar 400 ability & 3.67s faster over 1500, if cram coud go 1'42.88, then by simple proportion that means hicham shouda been capable of high-1'40 !

the answer to that nonsensical 800 is that cram musta had far superior 400 ability to hicham in order to compensate for inferior 1500 ability in order to run 1'42.8, if we offer hicham ~ 1'43.0 in '98

Red Arrow wrote:Using the great trinity court run as evidence to their 400m ability is a nonsense. The athletes have to practically stop at 3 or 4 corners. Someone like Lord Burghley (who was certainly slower than Coe as a 400m runner) who completed the run within the chimes, would have practised it and it would have come down to technique

no

the reason why it's not worth noting is because in '88 coe's best was 1'43.93 whereas cram's was 1'43.42

both long way from 1'41.7 & 1'42.8 peaks

It's funny to see these discussions, similar what happens in the Italian TV about soccer. Everybody knows better than the coaches what they have to do.

The problem with a calculator (I don't say it is good or bad) is that we can have a vision of the HYPOTHETICAL POTENTIALITY OF AN ATHLETE, without considering the most important factor : his type of training.

In September 2004, Brussels meeting, after the WR of Shaheen in steeple and a good race of 3000m flat (Kipchoge 7'27" and Kwalia 7'28"), I went in the warm-up area, for looking at my athletes, and I met Richard Limo (World Champion of 5000m). He asked me : "Renato, how is the race this evening ?", and I answered "Richard, I think they can run a little faster than 27'. I have Ahmed Hassan in good shape, and Mark Bett and John Korir, looking for something like this, so I told the pacers to go for 13'28" about at 5k". And Richard said : "Very good, this' my goal too, BECAUSE I'M IN VERY GOOD SHAPE".

The race was exactly how we planned, with something a little under 13'30" at 5k. For 7 km, all my athletes, plus Kamathi, were together, Richard included. But in the last 3 km Richard lost contact, and was lapped (26'58" for Ahmed Hassan winner, 26'59" Kamathi, 27'02" Bett, 27'07" Korir and... 28'19" Richard Limo !). After one week, Richard won Berlin Golden League in 5000m in 12'56", SO HE WAS REALLY IN SHAPE... but shape for 5000m, not for 10000m !.

So, what everybody here has to understand is that, same remaining the talent of an athlete, THE DIFFERENCE IN THEIR PERFORMANCES DEPENDS ON THEIR TRAINING, and you can't train all the qualities at the same time.

The sitiation of Steve Cram is very clear :

1. Of course he could run faster than his official PB of 49"1, but probably not very much faster than 48", BECAUSE HIS ATTITUDE WAS TO HAVE A VERY HIGH AEROBIC POWER, that is the base for developing the ANAEROBIC RESISTANCE, and had a normal ANAEROBIC (or LACTIC) POWER.

2. When junior, he became European Champion in Bydgoszcz '79 in 3000m, showing his main attitude and preparation when young was in direction of Aerobic Power.

3. Which this base, he was able to run in training 10 times 300m in 39" with 30" / 40" of recovery (100m jogging), THAT IS A TRAINING DEPENDING ON THE AEROBIC POWER AND ANAEROBIC RESISTANCE, nothing to do with the LACTIC POWER AND THE ANAEROBIC CAPACITY (In this field he was not strong like other athletes).

4. Who instead comes from 400m (for example, Juantorena, or Billy Konchellah, or Marcello Fiasconaro, or Tim Courtney, or Luciano Susanj, or in the past Rudolf Harbig, or for women Jarmila Kratochvilova), has a very high LACTIC POWER, and his training has to stay more in direction of LACTIC CAPACITY (that means, for example, running 3 times 600m close to the passage of the race, with 8' / 10' of recovery).

All the other things are pure specualation, and in Athletic we can't develop anybody using the system "May be". We don't have to look at "May be", but at "What we have to do because you can reach your best, and especially your best in the event that can give you the best opportunities in the international field".

ok - you all realize coach is the "winner" of this discussion.

with that said, coaches like jelley for walker and lydiard for snell would predicted in advance their world record performances, when both were around 3:57 milers....

for walker, he could do 49 for 400m and had aerobic ability better than anyone jelley had seen. for jelley that combo means 350 for the mile.

snell with a little better top end speed and good but not great aerobic ability was pegged for the 354 mile.

so the speculation game here is based on what they did in work outs and performances we try and emulate the great coaches.

check out the 37 second 300m finish here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRN9b7tQTY0

and check out the run in from 500m run - go calculate what speed cram must be doing....

http://www.youtube.co/watch?v=EKFZ7F7EWyU&feature=related

again the verdict is cram could easily go 47 mid since he goes around guys, runs wide, speeds up and slows down all the while achieving 50 second 400m pace.

Renato Canova wrote:

1. Of course he could run faster than his official PB of 49"1, but probably not very much faster than 48", BECAUSE HIS ATTITUDE WAS TO HAVE A VERY HIGH AEROBIC POWER, that is the base for developing the ANAEROBIC RESISTANCE, and had a normal ANAEROBIC (or LACTIC) POWER.

Thanks Mr.Canova, that was EXACTLY what I wrote earlier in this thread;

"I doubt that he could´ve run under 48. ...Other words, he had a good anaerobic power, and a great aerobic power."

I agree also perfectly about how the capability at different distances is related with the training that has been done.

longjack wrote:

again the verdict is cram could easily go 47 mid since he goes around guys, runs wide, speeds up and slows down all the while achieving 50 second 400m pace.

False. He ran a 51.4 last lap, based on commentators and my watch. He GOT A FLYING START into the last lap, after he ran the first 1000m at 2.48 (!!!). He started accelerating after that, because of that RIDICULOUSLY SLOW start of the race and his tremendous aerobic power, he was able to run quite close to his maximum 400m speed. No way he could´ve run "easily 47.5". You just have no clue about what you´re talking about. Cram wouldn´t be able to run "easily" 47.5 FROM THE BLOCKS.

The great kick came from ok speed and GREAT aerobic capacity and power, that allowed him to run CLOSER TO HIS MAXIMUM SPEED in the end of the race than anyone else could. This is the answer, Í´m done this thread.

I totally agree. Nice to see someone who actually looks at and uses real races and actual training times given by cram himself. If he could run faster than 48.0 then he would have mentioned it when asked in AW about his improved speed in the interview in October 85. The 23s 200m were with a rolling start.

Just goes to show, as Renato Canova, has explained, that all athletes are different and train in different ways. This explains why most athletes dont fit into ventolin's calculator.

We have some decent angelo American mile stars now. It is strange we are going back more than a quarter century to rediscover old mile talent. Many of us were lucky to see Cram, Ovett, Scott, Spivey and Byers in their prime. I now think Centos is going to join those ranks of great milers from the past. His bronze last year was a "very" big deal. Unlike Webb, you get a certain confidence watching Centos. He doesn't have flashy PRs yet, but he is always in position to win. Centos's 3:53.91 indoor mile this year is also extremely significant. That is equal to about a 3:50 mile outdoors. When this guy gets sub 3:50 mile speed WATCH OUT. At domestic meets Lagat's international experience and professionalism rub off on runners like Centos. Sidney Maree, did a similar thing in the US in the early to mid eighties when he forced Scott and Spivey to run very fast times in domestic meets. Maree was running with Scott in just about all his 8 sub 3:50 miles.

Right now Centos is the best US middle distance. Ok, Lagat may still have something in the tank. I am sure Lagat will be around to break Scott's masters 1500 record run in 3:35 at age 35. After that run Scott announced he was entually training to run a sub 4 minute mile at forty. Unfortunately, cancer put an end to that plan.

Antonio Cabral wrote:Look. One of the main reasons I come to this sport it´s because ther´s no speculation. Run is WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET. The runner that did 1:42.1 pb it´s because he never did 1:42.0 or faster and he did once faster than 1:42.2 and that´s all

Canova..we all know why you came to this sport..to make money off poor Kenyans...You are an opportunist and that is all....And amazingly, you actually think you are the most knowledgeable coach in the world because you've learned how to recruit the best runners.

Renato Canova wrote:and I met Richard Limo (World Champion of 5000m).And Richard said : "Very good, this' my goal too, BECAUSE I'M IN VERY GOOD SHAPE".

and... 28'19" Richard Limo !). After one week, Richard won Berlin Golden League in 5000m in 12'56", SO HE WAS REALLY IN SHAPE... but shape for 5000m, not for 10000m !.

So, what everybody here has to understand is that, same remaining the talent of an athlete, THE DIFFERENCE IN THEIR PERFORMANCES DEPENDS ON THEIR TRAINING, and you can't train all the qualities at the same time

no one is arguing this ( except we are talking about their potential for other distances on a specific day if they had run them )

it's fairly obvious from this that at the time his ideal race distance was nearer 5k than 10k & his "endurance" didn't "last" to 10k off his training ( 28+ is nonsense for a champ with 12'56 )

it's no surprise

if i said rudy, off his ~ 45-flat/high-1'40 abilty shoud be able to run

~ 3'28

if his "endurance" lasted "perfectly" to 1500, it woud be a shock to no one

however, in reality, if he even broke 3'35 currently, it woud be a huge shock

same with cram : in '85 he ran 2k wr of 4'51, but off his suggested 46.5/1'42.5, it is hypothetically

~ 4'47.7

his endurance clearly didn't last to 2k despite breaking the wr !

He did what he did and didnt what he didnt. What´s the matter what hypothetically he could done. This is your intellectual masturbation, to think what he could done.