could he go faster than 48.5 while he was training for the 800/1500? please give your input and back up your claims with evidence
could he go faster than 48.5 while he was training for the 800/1500? please give your input and back up your claims with evidence
49.1 + 49.1 = 1:38.2
don't believe the crap that he only had 49 second speed. you cant look at middle distance runners' prs for 400m as they never run them....especially when they are in prime shape.
He split 50.8 in this race looking quite comfortable. Do you really think he could only run 49 at this point?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnJ1_IRvHgM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
i'd say cram could've run about 47.8
On the other extreme, Kipketer's 1500 PR was 3:42.
I doubt that he could´ve run under 48. You have to remember, he would´n get fast start. But he ran 3.29,67 at 1500m that summer. So he had some speed with tremendous endurance and voila. Other words, he had a good anaerobic power, and a great aerobic power.
curiousrunner wrote:
could he go faster than 48.5 while he was training for the 800/1500? please give your input and back up your claims with evidence
Yes, he certainly could run faster than 48.5 when in his peak years of 85 and 86.
His 49.1 400pb was set in a very low key meet in Durham in 1982, when he had pbs of 1:44.45 and 3:33.66.
He ran a 47.6 relay leg in September 84 (the year he won Olympic silver) during a tour of the Far East. Haven't seen the race but it was in AW at the time and it is in print in books. Depending on the take over, it has to be worth somewhere between 48.1 and 48.5 for a stationary start. This was at the end of a long hard season, in which he didn't break 1:46 for 800m (though I don't doubt he was capable of at least the 1:44 low he ran in 82, just never ran in a big circuit race) and his best 1500 was 3:33.13.
In 85/86 he was a 1:42 high/3:29 low athlete. I would suspect that he could have run a 47.5 (perhaps a tenth or two faster) for an open 400m at an appropriate time of the season during those two seasons. Despite Ventolin's claims to the contrary, I do not believe he could run sub 47.
Cram has often said that he ran the 800m differently to most. He regularly brings it up in commentary how nearly all runners do the first lap far too fast. Cram often split pretty evenly in 800's which is a rarity. He said he didn't have the speed to go out really hard so he held back a bit for the first 200-300m and came through strong. Coe + Ovett were both faster over 400m than Cram.
Cue our man Ventolin.
TheBoyFromJarrow wrote:
Cram has often said that he ran the 800m differently to most. He regularly brings it up in commentary how nearly all runners do the first lap far too fast. Cram often split a teenpretty evenly in 800's which is a rarity. He said he didn't have the speed to go out really hard so he held back a bit for the first 200-300m and came through strong. Coe + Ovett were both faster over 400m than Cram.
Cue our man Ventolin.
I agree with everything you say bar the last bit. I think Ovett and cram had Similar 400 ability during their peak years. Ovett was certainly naturally faster and was a better sprinter as a teen. But he didn't really work on his speed over 1 lap once he reached the top of the 1500 rankings. I think the fastest relay leg he ran was around 46.8 in 79 (possibly 78). That's worth around 47.5 for an open 400. I'd be surprised if Cram couldn't match that in 85/86. Having said all that, Cram wouldn't stand a chance against Coe or Ovett over 200m.
Seems there are some Brits in the house: I always wondered, why was Seb Coe such a sh!tty championship 800m runner? What theories abound? Was he just a great time-trialer? Amazing he can get thrashed by Ovett in '80 when he was the dominant WR holder, but come back and win the 1500m. Seems very Alan Webb-ish.
Coe was the ultimate thoroughbred. Incredibly fast, slender, and I think a bit prone to being tight and variable in championship 800 races. The good thing is that the 800 seemed to knock the nerves out of him for the 1500. In the 1500 in both 80 and 84, he looked unbeatable. This is why middle distances are exciting - they are a reflection of a runner's personality.
I would like to know what ventolin's calculator says about one's 800/1500 time with only 49.1 speed.
You're probably correct Deano. 400m may be slightly closer but over 200m Cram would be left in the dust as you say. He didn't have that explosive speed of Ovett or Coe. Steve Ovett still holds the Junior sprint records for Brighton I think, he ran some great times as a kid over the shorter distances.
I like what you did with the quote as well!
400-1500 coach wrote:
On the other extreme, Kipketer's 1500 PR was 3:42.
Another example--Paul tergat's 1500m PR was 3:45 but his 3k PR was sub 7:30.
Two Olympic Silvers and a Gold at Euros is some really awful 800m running for Coe.
Fast 3000 wrote:
don't believe the crap that he only had 49 second speed. you cant look at middle distance runners' prs for 400m as they never run them....especially when they are in prime shape.
He split 50.8 in this race looking quite comfortable. Do you really think he could only run 49 at this point?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnJ1_IRvHgM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This ^ is spot on.
All the "PRs" of folks outside of their primary racing distances are essentially meaningless.
Steve Cram usually comes to this site am sure he has read this thread.Perhaps you could ask him to explain
Maybe someone who knows him well stated the thread. They know the answer but want letsrun "experts" to explian.
Simply not possible!
This would be like saying a sub-4 miler only being able to run a 1:56 800m.
everyone has a peak season & they have a peak day in that peak season
cram in '85 despite running 3 wrs & 2nd fastest ever 1k had his absolute career peak in that mile - in a total zone & better than any other race/form in his life
i'm confident his form that day was
~ 46.5 / 1'42.5 -> 2'11.95 , 3'28.34 , 3'45.47
or
~ 46.4 / 1'42.4 -> 2'11.86 , 3'28.32 , 3'45.47
i reckon he had mid-46 speed that day
what he basically was that day was one of those fairly numerous kenyan 800 guys like kimutai/ndururi/onyancha/yego/etc who have ~ mid-46/mid-1'42 ability but his endurance, crucially extended upto 1500/mile "perfectly" whereas these guys didn't