Phil Hersch ranks US marathoners on all time list

i dont care how he wants to rank them...its his opinion. but what is funny is that for the first 9 athletes on the list he is sure to point out everything they have done well and builds a case for why each should GET to be where they are ranked. for hall he lists what he has done, but then follows it up with why hall should not be higher...he builds a case for why hall should NOT be ranked better.

So Johnny Hayes, who got the gold medal at the 1908 Olympics with a 2:55:18 is a "greater" marathoner than Hall? That's just stupid.

The 1908 Olympic marathon was not remotely competitive by today's standards. No one trained anything like as hard as modern runners and the competition was very shallow- a tiny number of "amateurs" from a handful of European countries, the US and Canada. Hayes would be beaten by the winner of almost every marathon run in the last year, and he didn't "dominate" the 1908 marathon - he won because Dorando Pietri was disqualified. How is that a greater achievement than anything Hall has done?

Hersh is way overvaluing Olympic medals and "dominance." "Dominance" in a less competitive environment proves nothing. No one would say that if someone could "dominate" a NCAA Div. 3 event or a juniors event with times that wouldn't be competitive in Div. 1 or an open event that that runner is "greater" than a faster but less dominant runner in a more competitive league. There's just no way that a 2:55 marathoner is "greater" than a 2:06 (or 2:04) marathoner, even if 2:55 is enough to win an uncompetitive race. I might as well say that if I can "dominate" my local Turkey Trot against soft competition, I had a better race than Hall finishing 11th in Beijing.

These list are never easy and to an extent when it is your list you get to call it like you see it. However, KK and Hall are too far down the list for what appears to me as obviously reasons.

These list are never easy and to an extent when it is your list you get to call it like you see it. However, KK and Hall are too far down the list for what appears to me as obviously reasons.

What ever happened to copy editing? I found two obvious typos in that article, and I'm sure I missed a couple.

John J. Kelley, (the younger) had more pivotal influence than the elder Kelley. In fact without J.J. Kelley there wouldn't be been anyone on the list but Hayes and DeMar. For details see the recent issue of Marathon and Beyond with Kelley on the cover.

Tom

Meb's Silver in 2004 is a great accomplishment but I think you are watching the same anti-Hall movie as Hersh. At any time since 2004, would Hersh ask Meb if he was disappointed with a sub 2:09 marathon? Oh yeah, Meb has never run one and would likely be very happy with it. You seem to agree that Hall and Meb are contemporaries, yet you do not acknowledge that with the exception of 2009, Hall has performed better every year since both have been active marathoners and Hall has won all of their head to head matchups except for NYC in 2009 and I think Hall would have won the others if they matched up more.

2007: Hall (dominant performance by Hall in OT, give Meb credit for finishing with an injury - you left this result out)

2008: Hall

2009: Meb

2010: Hall

2011: Hall

2012: ?? (I am pulling for Meb to make the team)

Meb has medaled (top three) in majors (including Olympics) five times. Hall has done so once.

5 >> 1

The purpose of such lists is to increase readership by comparing the incomparable.

Belgian Waffle wrote:

Meb's Silver in 2004 is a great accomplishment but I think you are watching the same anti-Hall movie as Hersh. At any time since 2004, would Hersh ask Meb if he was disappointed with a sub 2:09 marathon? Oh yeah, Meb has never run one and would likely be very happy with it. You seem to agree that Hall and Meb are contemporaries, yet you do not acknowledge that with the exception of 2009, Hall has performed better every year since both have been active marathoners and Hall has won all of their head to head matchups except for NYC in 2009 and I think Hall would have won the others if they matched up more.

2007: Hall (dominant performance by Hall in OT, give Meb credit for finishing with an injury - you left this result out)

2008: Hall

2009: Meb

2010: Hall

2011: Hall

2012: ?? (I am pulling for Meb to make the team)

Wow, so you are a fanboy too. My initial guess was simply that all the attention given Hall on this site skewed your perception. But I've shown you the hard facts and you're sticking by the clearly inferior runner here.

No, I did not include anything outside of marathon majors. The Olympic trials are a JV race, they don't count. I also did not include Meb's impressive track credentials or Hall's impressive half marathon results. If we are talking about marathons, then the discussion is basically about 7 races. Boston, NY, Chicago, London, Berlin, Olympics, World Championships. That's where the money, prestige, and competition are. Those are your Super Bowls. You don't get credit for winning the lesser races.

Of course Hall is disappointed by sub-2:09 finishes. He's delusional and so are most people on this site when it comes to assessing him. He genuinely thinks he's going to pop a legit (ie, non-wind aided) 2:04 one of these days. Maybe he will someday, but I'd like to see a 2:07 first, then maybe a 2:06 before we start talking about 2:05 and 2:04. I'm rooting for him to do it, but let's start with that 2:07 first, shall we?

And what is this garbage about comparing them year to year? Yes, let's just ignore Meb's 2004-2006, how convenient for your argument. And let's nevermind Meb's injury problems in 2007-2008, Hall was so obviously better. Look, if you want to have an intellectually honest argument, examine their full careers, which will have peaks and valleys, but will give you a true picture in the end.

Hall's career is not over yet, and certainly if he gets a medal like Meb, wins a major like Meb, and gets some more top-3 finishes like Meb, I would be willing to revisit this argument. But as it stands now it is no contest. I don't think you can be blind enough to look at the evidence and truly believe Hall is better. I think maybe you just like Hall better, or picked a position the first time and want to "win" the argument. But it is clear who has the better marathon career.

Hahaha. Hersch is totally selling this hall hating thing. Either it's personal or he wants to just keep getting his name out there. I guess he doesn't have the confidence to let his writing do the talking. No, he has to do outrageous things, like make this stupid list. Mind you, I wouldn't necessarily put hall at the top, but putting him in tenth is absolutely absurd. Hersch just refuses to give credit where credit is due.

That being said, this whole board is giving into Hersch. I'm pretty sure that's all he wants. He doesn't want people to agree with him; he wants people to get angry and talk about him, as opposed to the trials or hall or whatever.

Making lists like this are stupid anyway. It really is comparing apples to oranges. Too much has changed to make any relevant comparisons between eras...

Well done, Phil wrote:

The purpose of such lists is to increase readership by comparing the incomparable.

Agreed, but such lists can be written intelligently, with some wisdom and insight, or they can be written solely to slam a certain person. Hersh clearly wrote the list just to jab Hall. Not everyone is gonna agree with the exact ranking but putting Hall that far down is obviously an intentional slam.

Hersh is a jerk wad.

Mark Plaatjes

WORLD CHAMPION!

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=6399

well said straight to the record.Meb is way too far better than Ryan.5>1.

I agree with the Duck. A World Champion should be on that list. Mary Decker is our best ever middle distance runner because she was the World Champion. Craig Virgin is our best ever cross country runner because he was a World Champion. Plaatjes won the 1993 IAAF World T&F Championships marathon.

Clearly, he should be on the list.

2:06:17 in London 2008 not good enough for you? (But yes, IMHO, Meb does deserve to be higher than Hall on that list).

setting the record straight wrote:

Of course Hall is disappointed by sub-2:09 finishes. He's delusional and so are most people on this site when it comes to assessing him. He genuinely thinks he's going to pop a legit (ie, non-wind aided) 2:04 one of these days. Maybe he will someday, but I'd like to see a 2:07 first, then maybe a 2:06 before we start talking about 2:05 and 2:04. I'm rooting for him to do it, but let's start with that 2:07 first, shall we?

I'm sure Ryan Hall runs every day thinking "man, I know the Olympics are getting close, but my real goal is to move up to the number 3 spot on Phil Hersh's all time marathon greats list"

I mean why even care what some chicago tribune wastoid thinks? Honestly I'm a big believer in "don't criticize unless you've done something similar" Does anyone know Hersh's running background if any?? Why do we care about this guy's view of the state of US distance running?

I knew Frank just before he won the Olympic Marathon. He had moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico to get a degree in Medicine from the University of New Mexico. We trained together a couple times. Later I talked to him after the AAU Cross Country Meet in Chicago that he won. He was a very nice, engaging person. I was so happy to see him run so well at the Olympics. I think that he could handly himself against any competition. An amazing athlete.

1. Shorter

2. Meb

3. Rodgers

4. Khannouchi

5. Hall