Wejo (and others): Tell me why Paula wasn't a doper.

Nutella1 wrote:

lol@tards.. wrote:

she ran 2:17 the year before...

That is still a 2:30min improvement. Imagine Geb would run 2:00:30. That is HUGE.

You are clearly unaware that, unique in women’s marathon history, when she ran her 2.15, she was paced all the way by two male (Kenyan) runners.

That caused so much debate and heated discussion at the time, such an experiment is unlikely to happen again.

I think some of you all are missing my point.

My point is a bit more nuanced than "she physically works harder than anyone else". People say that "well she can work harder because she was doping."

A lot of it had to do with her focus. When she was doing her 2:18 pace runs, they didn't look easy. Same thing when she crossed trained. I remember seeing her on the nordic track for the first time and it looked like she was running the Edmonton 10,000m final. I remember thinking "how can she do this (MENTALLY) day in and day out".

Between runs she was seeing Gerard who I think is an incredible physio. The treatment he did was so damn painful and it didn't phase her. But if there was a way to make your body recover quicker clean, seeing him regularly would be one of them. She was doing all the little things that would enable you to recover quicker. It was sleep, run, do drills and everything else, sleep, run, get some physio, eat some dinner, go to bed. Sure a lot of athletes do this on some scale but the point I was trying to make I've seen a lot of athletes and no one did it on her scale.

It's like Alberto's argument with his athletes, we train and then we do everything else possible that is legal to help them recover better. I myself did "hi-lo" training just driving in my car 2 hours or 4 hours round trip 2-3 times a week to workout. I don't know any other athlete in the World who did this and I got a ton better. So if I had Nike's resources behind me and was seeing the best physios, seeing the best doctors, having my blood work done, even had a van I just sat in the back of so I didn't have to drive I could see myself getting even better.

Everything I learned about her anecdotally said there was something different. Even before she ran her first marathon, some scientists in Britain said she was made for the marathon.

And as for being outspoken against drugs Paula took it to another level. The younger guys on here may not realize she went to Edmonton World Champs and held up a sign "EPO Cheats Out". If a year later she was doping it would shatter my view of the sport and i'm already pretty skeptical.

As for some drug no one knew about that may not have been banned like the GW-501516 sure it's a possibility for any athlete. They also could just be taking EPO or have been doing blood transfusions. A "clean" athlete with a conscious perhaps might more likely take something that specifically isn't banned but I can't disprove a negative.

That's why journalists should perhaps at least ask athletes what they are taking that is legal. Sure they can lie or not answer the question but at least they are then on the record.

Taking it down one level is people on here complaining about Rupp and Goucher being diagnosed with hypothyroidism and getting drugs for that. That is out in the open. If the drugs give an athlete an unfair advantage the authorities should ban them. These drugs are known about and have not been banned. Thus the authorities seem to support the stated view that a lot of runners overtain, throw their thyroids out of whack, and need these drugs and they are legal. Maybe all people who train a lot should test their thyroids. I think a legitimate question to all athletes is, "What supplements are you on?" We want to believe that athletes just go out and train and work hard and do well. That is universal. So if our stars are taking something even legal I can see the public wanting to know what this is. Because ultimately we want sport to be who is the best athlete not who has the best doctor who knows about the latest supplement or drug (even if this drug is legal). So journalists should as Mo Farah if off the track there are any medications or supplements he started since getting with Alberto. Journalists in the US should ask their athletes that as well. If they don't want to answer, then a question to ask them is, "So sport is about who has the best doctors?" or, "Perhaps you're on something that will be banned in the future, is that why you don't want to answer?" Some athletes no doubt will want to keep any competitive advantage secret like their training.

Another thing with Paula is: didn't she pay to have her samples frozen? Were they frozen? If so, that supports the clean argument. I just googled, Paula freeze samples and found this excerpt from her book which indicates her samples may be frozen somewhere:

http://www.paularadcliffe.com/book/20.php

It's a good take on her mindset.

Perhaps the saddest thing about illegal performance enhancement is that we cannot tell who is innocent, and we doubt the innocence of nearly anyone who does well. It makes sense, but the innocent have no way to prove their purity. Black, white, American, African, anyone who suddenly improves is suspect (anyone ever hear of Bob Beamon? popping one, emotional release, things coming together all can make one look guilty of something).

While this all makes sense, and the floor is open for discussion of any and all, how must it feel to produce a great performance clean, then read about it online as though it were tainted, and with many comments coming in uncouth and gritty? Sad really.

I know there was talk back in my days of reading anything and everything on running that women had a strength disadvantage but a stamina advantage, with women sometimes winning 50 or 100 mile type races outright. Perhaps that is part of why the charts don't line up for the marathon like they do for the 100m? Variation is perhaps more likely than flat performance. And younger folks may not remember that women running 5k or 10k races is a relatively recent idea. I remember the 3k for women being part of the early World Championships, no steeple barriers involved. Marathons are many, as we know, and 10K track races are few. Which could also skew record comparisons as they move up in distance.

There has never been any evidence that Paula dopes. It used to be necessary to have evidence before making accusations. Not here, apparently, a place where anyone's success is suspect.

WeJo, Gabriela Szabo was also in that photo with Paula. Anyone can get great treatments from Hartmann; you did, did he fix your injuries? Your point is lost.

I'm not saying if she was clean or dirty but if she ran 2:15 clean, then how fast could she have run dirty? 2:12? Seems kind of crazy...

Alf Shrubb wrote:

You are clearly unaware that, unique in women’s marathon history, when she ran her 2.15, she was paced all the way by two male (Kenyan) runners.

That caused so much debate and heated discussion at the time, such an experiment is unlikely to happen again.

Totally ... NOT! Berlin for example still has combined starts. It's the fastest course, and plenty of female athletes have male pacesetters there. Not necessarily payed for but if a Kenyan woman tries to run 2:19 or so then their manager should have no problem to find a couple Kenyans who will do pace setting for a couple of thousand USD. Where is the problem?

I don't see Szabo

Shoe Goo wrote:

WeJo, Gabriela Szabo was also in that photo with Paula. Anyone can get great treatments from Hartmann; you did, did he fix your injuries? Your point is lost.

By any means wrote:

http://www.paularadcliffe.com/ad_cheats.php

I don't see Szabo

Shoe Goo wrote:

WeJo, Gabriela Szabo was also in that photo with Paula. Anyone can get great treatments from Hartmann; you did, did he fix your injuries? Your point is lost.

I'm sorry, facts have no place in this discussion. This is for innuendo only.

I was in about Row 5 on the homestretch in Edmonton. During the women's 5000m, Paula and Hayley Tullett, a 2000 British Olympian at 1500m, walked back and forth along the front row holding that sign to protest Olga Yegorova's participation after she'd failed an EPO test in Paris but had it reversed on a technicality. (She won.) Szabo was IN THE RACE (she finished eighth), so if she appears in any pictures of the event, it isn't while holding any signs with Paula.

The stand that Paula took that day, plus her willingness to have her blood samples preserved so they can be tested using methods developed later, have always made me skeptical that she'd dope.

coach d wrote:

Keep in mind that her WR is stronger on IAAF charts than 9.58, and that the next fastest woman is further behind than Tyson Gay is behind Bolt.

If you suspect Bolt and Africans, but you don't suspect Paula, that stretch of logic could be described a racist.

Does anyone seriously suspect Bolt of being a doper? Take all the drugs you like - you'll never run that fast. Bolt's not human.

I vote for Dirty. Sorry but the LA comparison seems to fit, she's a beloved athlete, but she put that time up before EPO testing was very effective. I'm just not buying that performance.

Lexmark wrote:

I vote for Dirty. Sorry but the LA comparison seems to fit, she's a beloved athlete, but she put that time up before EPO testing was very effective. I'm just not buying that performance.

She's also had her blood FROZEN for future advanced tests.

What more do you people need to accept that she didn't dope?

If Paula is so dirty, then why don't the rest of her performances match her marathon record? I'd find it hard to believe that something like EPO or any other PED for that matter just selectively improves one area of performance greatly. For those of you saying that Wejo doesn't get it, I think it is you all who are not understanding: IF Paula were taking some performance enhancing substance to allow for faster recovery and high volume training, it would not simply make her invincible in one event. It would affect her entire spectrum of running.

When you look at history's suspected (suspected... nothing is definitive) dopers, like Wang Junxia or Daniel Komen, they have ridiculous performances from just about 1500-10000m. If someone is doping, it's highly unlikely that there will be just ONE super concentrated area of improved performance. Paula's 5000m and 10000m PRs are excellent, but they are not off the charts like her marathon performance is.

I would say that does indeed lend credence to the idea that Paula is simply "built" for the marathon, and that her naturally accrued high volume tough-as-nails training likely made a big impact as well.

Of course, this line of reasoning is also aside from the other THRONGS of evidence against Paula's cheating, like the frozen blood samples, frequent testing (in and out of competition), and vocal stance on the issue.

[Totally ... NOT! Berlin for example still has combined starts. It's the fastest course, and plenty of female athletes have male pacesetters there. Not necessarily payed for but if a Kenyan woman tries to run 2:19 or so then their manager should have no problem to find a couple Kenyans who will do pace setting for a couple of thousand USD. Where is the problem?[/quote]

The problem is that all you write is total conjecture.

Yes, in theory, a female runner might pay a couple of male Kenyan runners to pace her all the way.

But it has never happened since - and is unlikely to happen in the future.

And if you think it would be as simple as that anyway - you clearly didn’t see Paula’s actual race either.

And we’re talking about a 2.15 pace in Paula’s case - how many of these Kenyan women you fantasise about are capable of following a 2.15 pace?

Whatever - I’m sure Paula would be greatly concerned that a few crackpots on Letsrun forum claim she takes drugs - or perhaps not.

Shoe Goo wrote:

Who was the little Romainan runner who won medals, 5k?, in the pic with Paula, holding the anti-doping sign "dopers out"; who later retired very shortly after calf blood serum was found in her car? Gabriela Szabo?

Does anyone have a photo of that?

coach d wrote:

Keep in mind that her WR is stronger on IAAF charts than 9.58, and that the next fastest woman is further behind than Tyson Gay is behind Bolt.

If you suspect Bolt and Africans, but you don't suspect Paula, that stretch of logic could be described a racist.

That is a misogynistic statement.

Paula is not a doper. There's no evidence that she is. Nothing any of you have cited qualifies as evidence. Letsrun is overpopulated by little weasels who are allegedly running fans but have a very difficult time celebrating anyone else's running accomplishments. It's way beyond sad and pathetic, and it's also tedious.