Hypothetical race between Jim Ryun and Steve Ovett in their respective primes. Who would win?

deanouk wrote:

...

So we have Ovett as having slightly superior basic leg speed at 200m...

Perhaps. But it isn't about leg speed. Foot speed is more important and I think that Ryan had an edge there. Of course, there are some who say that navel speed is what really counts but I don't put too much weight in that theory.

I never saw one race Ovett won where he battled with someone for an extended period during the last 400. In a mile 1500. For that matter the only thing I have to go by on Ryun is his HS race against Snell and the slow Crystal Palace race in 1967 against Keino where he crushed him with 200 to go.

It seemed the few races Ovett had somebody close with 150 to go he gave in. I guess you could say the same for Ryun but at his peak I would bet on Ryun shutting him down by the last 80 meters. Recall Ovett in 1980 in the 1500.

Coe on the other hand would have found a third gear into the stretch that neither could answer in this hypothetical race but that's another story. Doped EL G wouldn't have been a factor unless he had his rabitt take it out in 53-1:51.

break it up wrote:

... Doped EL G wouldn't have been a factor unless he had his rabitt take it out in 53-1:51.

So, you are saying the greatest 1500m/miler in history by far wouldn't have been a factor?

OK. I can see that you really understand the sport.

From 1965-67 Ryun beat Snell and Odlzil, the defending gold and silver medallists from the previous Olympics, as well as Norpoth, Tummler, and Keino, all Olympic medallists. Sure, most races were against mediocre opponents. Everyone's were. There are only so many occasions when the real top people race each other.

No disrespect to Ovett intended but having seen each of them race I cannot think of Ovett as being as good as Ryun.

He closed the last lap of a 1500/mile (I can't remember which) in something like 50.4 in a race against Bodo Tummler and Harold Norpoth. Some reported that his last lap was under 50 seconds.

Ryun actually ran 46.9 in a relay.

Ryun was a double WR holder. He might as well have been the European champion and World Cup winner, he was better than everyone by far at his best.

Ryun never reached his potential either. He also had far fewer major events to run in, so that is a pretty moot point.

There speed is about equal. Ryun broke 8 world records, Ovett has 6 by my count. And the championship record thing isn't really valid. Ovett had far more opportunities to race in championship races than Ryun had. For example: European champs, Commonwealth champs, World Cup, World champs. 1980 was also a boycotted olympics, and Coe ran like a fool in the 800. Ryun did better in the 1500 than Ovett did.

I would't call Kip Keino mediocre opposition. Ryun raced and beat him in his 2 mile and 1500 PBs. And his mile world records being against mediocre opposition aren't really his fault. He was just better than everyone by far, it wasn't even close. He was his own rabbit and had no one t push him. That makes it more impressive.

Lol, so if it is on youtube then that makes it better? It's not Ryun's fault that he was kicking ass in the 60s instead of the late 70s and 80s.

HRE wrote:

Is the phrase "I've never seen" puzzling you? You likely have seen something other than what I have.

Not everyone defines "seen" as "seen in person". I'm sorry that I didn't understand what you were insinuating.

You know it's pretty peculiar to have a category devised purely for runners that you've "seen". Watching a track race on a tv screen gives no worse a sense of how good the runners are than actually "seeing" them. Unless there is absolutely no timepiece handy.

It's also possible that you meant that you weren't following the sport during Bekele/El G's era, I don't know what you meant though.

I meant seeing Ryun's races on TV. I never saw him in person. I think I saw Bekele on TV once and it was one f thse deals where they show a few laps, cut away and show you the end so I have no real sense of what his races were like. The times I saw El Guerojj race were mostly rabbitted and that sort of race doesn't impress me. Neither of these guys really matters in a disicussin of Ryun and Ovett.

HRE wrote:

I meant seeing Ryun's races on TV. I never saw him in person. I think I saw Bekele on TV once and it was one f thse deals where they show a few laps, cut away and show you the end so I have no real sense of what his races were like. The times I saw El Guerojj race were mostly rabbitted and that sort of race doesn't impress me. Neither of these guys really matters in a disicussin of Ryun and Ovett.

Time trial races IMPRESS me, but like you, I enjoy watching championship (no rabbit) races 1000x more than I enjoy watching TT's. Running a crazy time in a TT is only valuable as an indicator of what you could do in a championship race, in my opinion. Real (championship) races are better to watch because of the tactics, and the kicks. So I am going to give you a gift. It's possible that you won't appreciate it or already know about it. It's called: youtube.

There are a ton of great championship races available on youtube.

Ovett making Walker step off the track in '77 world cup:

Make sure you make the picture quality as good as possible by clicking the highest number on the bottom right (i.e. "480p")

Ovett beating Coe in '80 olympics:

Ryun beating defending olympic champ while a high schooler:

(bekele vs. El Guerrouj) Greatest olympic 5k showdown ever:

Sorry if you already knew about all of this (it seems like you don't though)

Been there, done that. Ryun's races were absolutely brutal. He would often go out in .55 and just tear through the first 800 leaving the pack running for cover. Have never seen it since.

I rarely bother with Youtube. I don't have the patience to wait while what I'm watching freezes for a while, gets going again for a few seconds, then freezes some more, etc. But thanks.

HRE wrote:

I rarely bother with Youtube. I don't have the patience to wait while what I'm watching freezes for a while, gets going again for a few seconds, then freezes some more, etc. But thanks.

That's not an issue with youtube, that's a weak or inferior internet connection. You need to upgrade buddy and get more bandwidth.

HRE wrote:

I rarely bother with Youtube. I don't have the patience to wait while what I'm watching freezes for a while, gets going again for a few seconds, then freezes some more, etc. But thanks.

The bar at the bottom that slowly moves from left to right is actually two bars: on is how far in you are, one is how much of the video has been loaded. The latter is very useful (to monitor) for having a freeze-free youtube experience. Pause the video, go do something, come back, and it will be fully loaded. Also, you can rewind it to the beginning and that will buy a few more seconds. I watch all youtube videos with zero stop-starting. Just trying to help. Your problem is one that is solved very easily. You might just have a very weak computer. You don't think all of today's kids are watching youtube videos freeze up every 3 seconds do you?

ventolin^3 wrote:

moron

listen to these - & note his 1500 was on a chewed up dirt track

My God, you are so profoundly retarded. CINDER IS NOT DIRT.

And the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum track was HARD and FAST.

deanouk wrote:

Ryun's 3:33.1, I agree is the equivalent of Ovett's best time

Ventolin-Insanity aside, it was run on a fast cinder track with negative splits, "rabbitted" through 1200 by Keino. Not only does it not compare to Ovett's best performances at 1500 meters, but Bayi's 3:32.2 with positive splits, alone, was a vastly superior performance.

The only real negative Re: the 3:33.1 was the heat, but Ryun said he felt great during the race and many people do not experience performance drop-offs at that distance.

lol lol lol lol wrote:

deanouk wrote:

Ryun's 3:33.1, I agree is the equivalent of Ovett's best time

Ventolin-Insanity aside, it was run on a fast cinder track with negative splits, "rabbitted" through 1200 by Keino. Not only does it not compare to Ovett's best performances at 1500 meters, but Bayi's 3:32.2 with positive splits, alone, was a vastly superior performance.

The only real negative Re: the 3:33.1 was the heat, but Ryun said he felt great during the race and many people do not experience performance drop-offs at that distance.

Forget the 3:33. Watch his 3:51 mile and tell me he couldn't have gone 3 seconds faster. No wabbit, just Ryun all by himself from the first step. He finished that race like it was a walk in the park.

Thanks again. Now that you mention it, I think I knew that trick some time ago and forgot about it. I do appreciate you taking the time to post all those links.

virtually identical post on TFN

What in God's name are you smoking? I think there is a serious lack of knowledge from our USA friends over Ovett's abilities. I think it's valid as I'll openly admit to not knowing a huge amount about Ryun (other than he was fantastic) but I think you guys need to realise just how dominant Steve Ovet was back in the late 70's. Basing an entire career on that 1500m final in 80 isn't a wise move, that was probably Ovett's worse race, he admitted that after he won the 800 he went out and go smashed, lost focus and wasn't really "right" for the 15. He was unbeaten over 1500/mile races for THREE YEARS... I can't remember the exact amount but I think it was 45 races or so. He won Euro champs at a canter, decimating the field and waving to the crowd. He used to school the likes of Walker, Scott, Weisinhanger and a host of doped up Eastern Europeans with consummate ease.

I have no doubt that Ryun was great, in fact I've seen with my own eyes how amazing he was on videos but some of the posts completely dismissing Steve Ovett are outrageous. The guy was one of the very very best. Who would win in a race? Sadly, we'll never know but please watch the following video and tell me this guy wasn't a phenomenal athlete.

And I thought my links were good....