Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context

How old is Lukas again compared to the other American runners we are labeling him with?

I wish I was his age in 10th grade. I graduated from high school the same age he was in the middle of his sophomore year.

Here is the way it is wrote:

Tanya Skagle wrote:

You left out an "of" between "would" and "destroyed."

No, he left out a "have" between "would" and "destroyed." He also incorrectly replaced a "have" with an "of" between "would" and "been".

jesus

Lukas is 17-18 this year. 7 days younger then Ritz his senior year. Lukas is a senior this year.

Also, I didn't say this to take away from what the kid has done.

I mean he is one heck of a good runner. But if you were to give some of the other Americans the same time frame to run what he did in HS. I would say that you could not simply label as the "best". Compare what they did at each age, rather than what they did in what grade.

Age! wrote:

Also, I didn't say this to take away from what the kid has done.

I mean he is one heck of a good runner. But if you were to give some of the other Americans the same time frame to run what he did in HS. I would say that you could not simply label as the "best". Compare what they did at each age, rather than what they did in what grade.

This argument is old and outdated.

He was a sophomore who turned 17 last year. Now he's 'back on schedule' and will be graduating as a junior, roughly 4-5 months after his 18th birthday. He'll be normal age at graduation, and as has been mentioned, within about a week of Ritz at the same period.

If you were to give some of the other Americans the same time frame? He'll graduate high school in 3 years at age 18. He had no extra age, and had less time than others in HS.

The only age arguments that apply to LV are that he was older than other freshman and sophomores when running frosh/soph records. Anything else is bunk.

Solinsky not a HS Legend wrote:

Mallory's Ghost wrote:

Yeah, Webb might be a better track runner, but the truth is Webb, Solinsky, and Rupp are nowhere near as dominant XC runners as Lukas.

You're shortchanging Solinsky, he is certainly in LV's class.

No he isn't, he wasn't a record breaker in highschool, although he did win Footlocker, his field was an rare down year. He was mediocre to poor in college XC. He hasn't done any pro XC. It is absurd to say he's is or ever was an XC legend.[/quote]

This is about H.S. XC only - at least that's how I'm interpreting it. See giffypop's post - Solinsky was one of the best H.S. XC guys of the last 25 years or so, among the fastest ever on the Balboa course. Not putting LV down at all, but Solinsky is an all-timer for H.S XC and that's the only point I was making by saying he was being shortchanged.

TK1451 wrote:

Ritz beat two future olympians, one of whom would go on to run 1:47.7, 2:23, 3:53, by 20 and 23 seconds and would go on to set the US high-school 5K record on the track.

Lukas beat some kid named Craig Lutz by 5 seconds. Yawn.

I beat Wheating and Manzano in NCAA cross. I am the greatest NCAA runner of all time?

Age! wrote:

How old is Lukas again compared to the other American runners we are labeling him with?

He is as old as Ritz was when he was a junior. So STFU.

Junior times don't mean jack, a lot of these kids had great freshman times that haven't moved much since. Something is being done wrong with their development that hurries them along to compete at NXN or something. Now they're injured, choking, or treading water for the most part.

2001 - was a much better class, as the Withrow/Rupp/McDougal class with two future American NCAA XC champions and Withrow who did better than Ritz at World XC the next year.[/quote]

Why would you even say "Junior times don't mean jack" when these kids haven't even run their senior year?

I also think it is unfair to drag track too much into this conversation. There are plenty of people who are much better at cross than track for whatever reason. I would put a guy like Jorge Torres into this category. He is the only 4-time qualifier in history. I would also say that Ritz was better at XC than track.

That all being said I think the track times do point to an overall depth in XC this year that at least rivals that of 2000 (or whatever Ritz senior year was). Of course there is no Webb, but you can put Webb into the category of people who aren't as good at XC as track.

I was able to see LV run this year at the State Meet and he is a beast, and I think is certianly one of the top 10 ever. I think he wasn't 100% race sharp at that point, and if whe would have run a full season he would have broken the record, but he didn't so it is irrelevant.

I think the big sticking point is that there are two people from IL who have run faster than him. I don't know if you can be considered the best of all time and NOT hold your own state record.

LaTruth wrote:

Ritz's 3rd place at the World Cross, in the junior race, is the best cross country performance by a US high school runner ever!

Top places by US high school runners in the world Jr. meet.

1st. Rich Kimball 1974

1st. Eric Hulst 1976

1st. Thom Hunt 1977

4th. Jeff Nelson 1979

3rd. Ritz 2001

Bekele won the race that Ritz finished 3rd in. The others ran aginst a bunch of white dudes.

I love Lukas- big fan.

But Ritz is #1, without a doubt.

1) Simply did not lose. Ever. Didn't lose a race to high school competition in cross country or track from his SOPHOMORE year outdoor Nike 2 Mile Championship (first race he beat his teammate, Jason Hartman) through his senior year. Undefeated, against a couple of phenominal classes.

2) Footlocker performances. 14:35 at Kenosha, winning by 20+ seconds. He then went on to beat Alan Webb and Ryan Hall by 20+ seconds at Nationals, breaking away after the mile mark. Lukas just ran 14:45 at Kenosha. As a junior, he set the course record on the Orlando course with a 14:29. As a junior.

3) 14:10 5K at his state meet his senior year. This is for 5K. The course hasn't changed for 14 years now. Second best time ever? 14:52 by Jason Hartman, a top 5 nationals guy his senior year. Ritz' senior year, he beat the next year's Footlocker National champion (Tim Moore) by 50 seconds (his splits were 4:24-8:58 en route)!! He could've easily taken that stupid Detweiller course record down that year (I say 13:40).

4) World stage. 3rd place at World Junior Cross. Against Africans (sorry Virgin). Sure it was an insanely muddy race, but he and Teg (freshman at Wisco at the time, finished 5th) ran out of their skulls. Bekele won the race, then some Kenyan, then Ritz.

As the guy above me said, Ritz showed up every time and crushed fields. Lukas won by 2 seconds or something at NXN, and that wasn't against any Alan Webbs, Ryan Halls, Don Sages, Andy Powells, Matt Tegenkamps, etc. Not to mention Lukas ran like 15:00 last year at footlocker when Ritz ran 14:29 at the same age.

As far as all these track times mentioned, I'm not sure what they have to do with cross country. You can list time after time after time with top ten performances and sub 9 two miles but the fact of the matter is Ritz decimated fields in cross country every weekend.

I think Lukas would be the best if he was a full time runner starting last year, however.

olle olle wrote:

He could've easily taken that stupid Detweiller course record down that year (I say 13:40).

Agreed. I often wonder what some top guys from other states would have done to that record. In particular, I suspected guys like Webb and Fernandez (better flat course time trialers than racers in XC) might have been able to break the record. There are a handful of others who I think might have been able to do it.

But Ritz is the only athlete who I have absolutely no doubt would have beaten that record. If he'd ever run that course, I say the record would be 13:35.

And while everyone focused on 'the big three' in the fall of 2000, and how Ritz owned Webb in that race, I was honestly more impressed with his title as a junior. He was younger, his time was faster, and the others gave him a much better fight. The big three in 2000 may have been the best top 3 in any class, but that 1999 race had the deepest top ten of any HS race, probably ever.

Watch the last 2 minutes of that race, and Ritz leaves you in awe. That little dude who couldn't have weighed 100 lbs at the time leaves you feeling like every thing you thought you knew about racing hard was simply inadequate.

deinitelydsds wrote:

As the guy above me said, Ritz showed up every time and crushed fields. Lukas won by 2 seconds or something at NXN, and that wasn't against any Alan Webbs, Ryan Halls, Don Sages, Andy Powells, Matt Tegenkamps, etc.

The only thing that annoys me about this type of comment (a few other have mentioned it as well) is that we simply don't know what the current crop of runners will become. Before Ryan Hall was "Ryan Hall" he was just another talented kid who showed some promise. For every Ryan Hall there are 5-10 others that show similar promise that just don't pan out (think Withrow, Moore, Aria, etc.) Someone like Lutz could turn into a Tegenkamp for all we know, and 10 years down the line others could be saying "LV is way better than [insert talented kid from class of 2020 here" because he had to race against Lutz!"

Skinny American wrote:I beat Wheating and Manzano in NCAA cross. I am the greatest NCAA runner of all time?

Did Wheating and Manzano run an 8:45 indoors 2 mile mostly solo as a SR in HS? The other poster left that number off. Webbs coach thought he could go 8:25 if pushed outdoors, which based off his 3:53 i wouldn't have been surprised of either.

Also, in North America, although Canadian, Brannen went 1:46/3:59 in 2001 as well. Canada is vitually just an extension of us anyways that we don't think about other than to buy drinks. It was def the biggest year all around from a top level standpoint.

Webb 147.7/223.6i/359i/845i/353 (also held soph mile record, and 359.9 relay split at Penn as a jr)

Hall 3:42.7

Ritz 13:44/3rd world jrs in xc

Brannen 1:46.6/3:59

Top that foursome

DATHAN RITZENHEIN > EVERYONE.

Great post, olle olle. I totally agree. One thing to add though:

olle olle wrote:

4) World stage. 3rd place at World Junior Cross. Against Africans (sorry Virgin). Sure it was an insanely muddy race, but he and Teg (freshman at Wisco at the time, finished 5th) ran out of their skulls. Bekele won the race, then some Kenyan, then Ritz.

As you noted, Bekele won the race, but the other places deserve more than just a perfunctory "some Kenyan." Fourth place (Kemboi) in the race, for instance, would run 26:30 just two years later.

The point about the depth of this year is a good one; if you want to compare the 10th/15th/25th/100th best guys in 2001 versus 2010, I'd definitely put my money on 2010 to come out on top. But the appropriate measure for "best" is who they had to relegate to second place and, as noted, Ritz took down some awful big names. You'd be hard pressed to find bigger names from the past decade.