Waldemar Cierpinski

Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:

I don't know where you're coming up with that - I'm convinced there was a USSR blood doping program:

Although the reasons for the different effects of blood doping on different types of athletic performance [in Volkov's tests] were not explained in the dissertation report, Volkov recommended that these differences be taken into consideration when using blood doping to prepare athletes for competition...

Volkov’s doctoral dissertation report makes clear that the practice of blood doping was pervasive in the USSR in the 1970s and 1980s. Middle- and longdistance swimmers, cyclists, rowers, skiers, biathlon athletes, and skaters all used this procedure in the 1976 and 1980 Olympic Games.

Aragon wrote:

Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:

I don't know where you're coming up with that - I'm convinced there was a USSR blood doping program:

Perhaps I articulated badly, because I do think think that it is more likely than not that the Soviets were blood doping, but only only meant that the evidence is surprisingly thin compared to how much it is taken as given.

And yes, I've read that article by Kalinsky based on the thesis by one physiologist N. Volkov, but the problem is that there were many blood doping related un-published theses also in the west that dealt issue on a very hypothetical level. In this regard it is too bad that Kalinsky doesn't directly quote from Volkov and it remains somewhat mystery in which part the following type of sentences are based on the original material and on which part on the Kalinsky's reading of the material:

Although the reasons for the different effects of blood doping on different types of athletic performance [in Volkov's tests] were not explained in the dissertation report, Volkov recommended that these differences be taken into consideration when using blood doping to prepare athletes for competition...

Volkov’s doctoral dissertation report makes clear that the practice of blood doping was pervasive in the USSR in the 1970s and 1980s. Middle- and longdistance swimmers, cyclists, rowers, skiers, biathlon athletes, and skaters all used this procedure in the 1976 and 1980 Olympic Games.

This is because there is some details wrong in the article. For instance, blood doping wasn't banned in the mid-1970's and even when Kalinsky writes that "while several [western] authors discussed blood doping in sport, none of these sources contained specific documentation about blood doping research in the USSR", some Soviet blood doping material was published in also in English language already in the 1970s and quoted by the blood doping researchers such as Norman H. Gledhill.

As far as I know, biathlete Sergei Tarasov is the only Soviet athlete who has confessed blood doping to confirm the allegations that he ended up in a hospital after something went wrong in the 1992 Olympic games. I have a recollection having seen a confession from someone else regarding the 1980 summer or winter olympics but haven't been able to locate the source.

From the age of 7 years, Cierpinski covered 6km per day on foot to go to and from school,

At age 15, W.C. clocked the fastest time ever in the 7,5km cross country event, recording a time of 23`05`` (3`05`` km pace). From that point on, W.C. was recognized and was asked to spend his vacations in training camps organized at the time in East Germany. Three years later W.C. won the Spartakiades Games in the 3000 steeplechase.

discovered that his chances in the 3000 steeple wold be limited. In 1972 he was the best E.German over the distance (8:35) but missed qualifying for Munich by 2 seconds.

He travelled to Kosice and took part in his first marathon. He stuck with the leaders to the 30km mark, before fading badly to finish 3rd in 2:20.28.

In 1975 at his second attempt at the distance, he returned to Kosice and this time, in a higher class race, finished 7th in 2:17.30. But this was just one year before his famous win in Montreal (1976) and he was still far away from clocking the necessary qualifying time to run in Montreal, the qualifying time established being 2:14.

16 weeks before Montreal (1976) W.C. won the Karl Marx event in 2:13.57.

d done enough to qualify for the Olympics, but as the East German selectors did not really know him at the time, they insisted he prove himself in another marathon! So, seven weeks later, W.C. was forced to run another marathon, just 9 weeks before the Olympic event. This time he won the Wittenberg marathon, and convinced the selectors to give him his entry ticket to the marathon in Montreal. His time in Wittenberg - 2:12.21.

The important thing is to train at the right pace, claims W.C. If W.C. runs 40km in training, all that does is to maintain his body aerobically, but it is not specific to the marathon. The secret in the W.C. method was to find the point where endurance and speed could meet. This is called specific pace. And for this, you can only work with distances of 10, 20 or 30 km.

W.C. claims that East Germany was 10 years ahead of all other nations with regard to effective training methods. The method was scientific. Every 6 weeks, all federation runners, underwent a whole series of tests, and these helped the trainers build individual programs for each runner, which were tailor made to the individual.

W.C.`s training was geared to run a time of 2:10, which represented 3:05 per kilometre. His upper limit for training would be 2:12 marathon which was 3:10 per kilometre. So he knew that his training would have to be within the 3:05-3:10 per km. speed.

For a quality session of 20km on the track, W.C. would alternate 10 times 1000m in 3:05, with 10 times 600m in 1`48`` all at the 20km per hour speed as the goal. He would run 1000, 600, 1000, 600....with a little recovery between each interval. At the end of the session, he would run a 4000 on the track in 12:00 mins. So that was a specific training session of 20km completed in 62`30``, with recoveries between intervals included.

For Moscow, W.C. trained very hard, so hard in fact that he would sometimes run an extra 5000 on the track in 15`` after a specific training session of 35km (at marathon goal pace).

doping in the USA wrote:

In the 1970s the laws on anabolic steroids in the US was non existent. In Frank Shorter's autobiography, he talks about a 1500m runner(if I remember the distance right, he doesn't say the name) bragging about the effects of juice at the 76 US trials. The only difference in the 1970s as far as doping goes in the USSR and their satellites vs USA doping goes was one was centralized vs decentralized. As far Waldemar Cierpinski doping goes, I've only seen evidence of doping in the east Germany as far as swimming, lifting and sprinting goes.

1970-1980 ten marathon times:

1970 2:09:28.8 Ron Hill (GBR) 1970-07-23 Edinburgh, Scotland

1971 2:11:08.8 Derek Clayton (AUS) 1971-09-25 Hobart, Australia

1972 2:10:30 Frank Shorter (USA) 1972-12-03 Fukuoka, Japan

1973 2:11:12.6 John Farrington (AUS) 1973-07-14 Sydney, Australia

1974 2:09:12.0 Ian Thompson (GBR) 1974-01-31 Christchurch, New Zealand

1975 2:09:56 Bill Rodgers (USA) 1975-04-21 Boston, United States

1976 2:09:55.0 Waldemar Cierpinski (GDR) 1976-07-31 Montreal, Canada

1977 2:10:55.3 Bill Rodgers (USA) 1977-12-04 Fukuoka, Japan

1978 2:09:05.6 Shigeru So (JPN) 1978-02-05 Beppu, Japan

1979 2:09:28 Bill Rodgers (USA) 1979-04-16 Boston, United States

1980 2:09:01 Gerard Nijboer (NED) 1980-04-26 Amsterdam, Netherlands

He time was within the range of everybody else. If you look into the 1976 Olympic marathon, you'll realize Frank gassed himself out throwing surges, trying to drop the German. Waldemar Cierpinski just ran the race better. Not to mention he trained better.

Frank Shorter training was basically the same year round. I.E Sun long run 2 hours, Monday double, Tues intervals, Wed double, Thurs intervals, Fri double, Sat race or intervals. Not very marathon specific. More geared towards the track. In fact, he said this in his autobiography.

Waldemar Cierpinski training was much more specific for the marathon.

From the age of 7 years, Cierpinski covered 6km per day on foot to go to and from school,

At age 15, W.C. clocked the fastest time ever in the 7,5km cross country event, recording a time of 23`05`` (3`05`` km pace). From that point on, W.C. was recognized and was asked to spend his vacations in training camps organized at the time in East Germany. Three years later W.C. won the Spartakiades Games in the 3000 steeplechase.

discovered that his chances in the 3000 steeple wold be limited. In 1972 he was the best E.German over the distance (8:35) but missed qualifying for Munich by 2 seconds.

He travelled to Kosice and took part in his first marathon. He stuck with the leaders to the 30km mark, before fading badly to finish 3rd in 2:20.28.

In 1975 at his second attempt at the distance, he returned to Kosice and this time, in a higher class race, finished 7th in 2:17.30. But this was just one year before his famous win in Montreal (1976) and he was still far away from clocking the necessary qualifying time to run in Montreal, the qualifying time established being 2:14.

16 weeks before Montreal (1976) W.C. won the Karl Marx event in 2:13.57.

d done enough to qualify for the Olympics, but as the East German selectors did not really know him at the time, they insisted he prove himself in another marathon! So, seven weeks later, W.C. was forced to run another marathon, just 9 weeks before the Olympic event. This time he won the Wittenberg marathon, and convinced the selectors to give him his entry ticket to the marathon in Montreal. His time in Wittenberg - 2:12.21.

The important thing is to train at the right pace, claims W.C. If W.C. runs 40km in training, all that does is to maintain his body aerobically, but it is not specific to the marathon. The secret in the W.C. method was to find the point where endurance and speed could meet. This is called specific pace. And for this, you can only work with distances of 10, 20 or 30 km.

W.C. claims that East Germany was 10 years ahead of all other nations with regard to effective training methods. The method was scientific. Every 6 weeks, all federation runners, underwent a whole series of tests, and these helped the trainers build individual programs for each runner, which were tailor made to the individual.

W.C.`s training was geared to run a time of 2:10, which represented 3:05 per kilometre. His upper limit for training would be 2:12 marathon which was 3:10 per kilometre. So he knew that his training would have to be within the 3:05-3:10 per km. speed.

For a quality session of 20km on the track, W.C. would alternate 10 times 1000m in 3:05, with 10 times 600m in 1`48`` all at the 20km per hour speed as the goal. He would run 1000, 600, 1000, 600....with a little recovery between each interval. At the end of the session, he would run a 4000 on the track in 12:00 mins. So that was a specific training session of 20km completed in 62`30``, with recoveries between intervals included.

For Moscow, W.C. trained very hard, so hard in fact that he would sometimes run an extra 5000 on the track in 15`` after a specific training session of 35km (at marathon goal pace).

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1580572

So of course the person who trained more specifically for the marathon, won it. Doing short reps like Shorter did have their place in training for a marathon, but compared to doing more marathon specific training i.e. 10-30 kilometer runs at marathon pace will prepare you better for the marathon. Plus doing some marathon races close to his goal race got him more prepared to run the marathon. So no wonder why the person who trained for what the marathon beat the guy who trained like a 5000m runner. Just show the training of Frank Shorter and Waldemar Cierpinski to the top physiologist and coaches today and ask them which will produce better results for the marathon given all other things being equal.