I don't think anyone should bash Borchers. I think he is a great talent and there is a lot of changes your freshman year so they are very inconsistent.
However, someone on the team needs to step up in a leadership role and get the team to pull together and push each other. Racing together more often would also help. I still don't know why you would host a meet and not run your best team.
Malmo, I think we need to bring back the by-pass loop!! What a great tempo run.
aafaghfdh wrote:
3:42.08 Doug Walter 90
Who is this? Never heard of him before. Was he a PA guy?
Yes - Chambersburg High School.
The bypass loop was great, but now there would be a casualty on every run!
as i recall, there were plenty of casualties back then too, before it ever opened
Doug Walter was excellent. I ran with him in high school...or should I say behind him, being a 3:58 1500m guy myself...
PSU Fan wrote:
Dam... there are an awful lot of haters out there...
The current state of the PSU program includes 4 good athletes not racing this past weekend and a couple others having an off day after training very hard last week.
That's a laugh. Penn State doesn't even know what hard training is like.
Malmo just posted the stupidest thing ive ever read on letsrun.
Because someoen runs fast in hs they need their hand held? Wouldnt it be the other way around, it takes some self motivation to get that fast.
PLease continue to be an idiot malmo. You old senile dookie pants.
One of the current PSU milers no doubt...
seasonal - I think you are off base here. Malmo's point is a good one - and is no different than what Dellinger and Bowerman preached.
The jump from high school to college is a significant one - and the ones that make it invariably learn to train consistently, live right (a big issue in college), and lose their Dye Stat inspired ego and star status, pronto.
I speak from the perspective of being a 4:05 miler in high school over 30 years ago - I can attest that overhyped experience can overshadow the development of a strong and balanced sense of humility and confidence (which for most comes from 60-70 miles a week of consistent training, moving up to more in the later college years).
This is not to say that PSU shouldn't recruit 4:05 high school milers - they should. But they should at the same time recruit for personal commitment and character. Put another way, impute 4:05 high school mile speed to someone with Malmo's work ethic and drive for improvement - well, that's how you arrive at an 8:10 steepler (or similar performance).
And one more point - Borchers' high school performances reveal that he has a talent level well beyond what I could contemplate in high school - and I was not a slouch. And unless he was sick or hurt (in which case he didn't need to run an XC race in September) his running 5:22 mile pace means in all likelihood one thing - he scarcely trained over the summer. Now, at his talent level, he can get into to fairly good shape in 30 days (8:50 type two mile form at least), but that is hardly the way a guy who has the talent to be in the top 5 in the Big 10 (a good goal for a miler in terms of confidence and building a base) should approach a Division 1 level cross country season. Ok, I know - maybe some assumptions have been made in my guesses - but I would be surprised if I am wrong. Here's to hoping that he matures to use his tremendous talent.
And I couldn't help but note that Tom Graves son Griff performed well in his first collegiate outing. And glad to see Chris Fox is building a strong team.
I have many fond memories of the Bypass Loop including the one year we ran it in a snowstorm. We finished with snow accumulation on our quads, shoulders, etc.
I remember Coach's glare from the overpass at the 4 mile mark like it was yesterday. Now that whole barren area is covered with condos and strip malls. They even had to build a bypass for Cricklewood Drive in Toftrees! The old runs aren't there anymore. (Maybe that accounts for the drop in performance!)
http://psutafalumnigolf.blogspot.com
for any of you PSU Track alums out there who haven't heard of us yet. Drop us a line.
The mountain roads in the state parks are still there. Switchbacks and Thickhead mountain are still there. Surely the guys run there. If for nothing else I would think that just running out on those mountain roads would make you strong. There's a really good local female runner who trains out there all the time.
Just be careful in the Game Lands when the October small game season starts. It seemed every year we would forget until some hunter fired off a round near us. None of us were ever hunters, so it never crossed our minds.
seasonal logic wrote:
Malmo just posted the stupidest thing ive ever read on letsrun.
Because someoen runs fast in hs they need their hand held? Wouldnt it be the other way around, it takes some self motivation to get that fast.
PLease continue to be an idiot malmo. You old senile dookie pants.
Let me hold your hand as I walk you through this reading comprehension thingy.
An athlete, no matter what his high school credentials, who shows up in September out of shape needs his hands held. This is especially true for scholarship athletes.
If an athlete needs his hands held, there are day care centers that are better suited for his needs -- NOT a university setting.
Penn State would absolutely destroy Syracuse in a track and field meet. It is not even close. Penn State has a much superior program. Fox has made it known that he only cares about cross country. He could not make that decision if he were at Penn State. His Syracuse teams got embarrased at the Big East Track and Field meets last year. His cross country teams are good, but they better be with all the scholarship money that is invested in distance runners. Not worth the sacrifice in my opinion.
In todays collegiate landscape it is hard to compare track teams when one school is a state school of an extremely populous state (Penn State) and the other school is a private school costing $45,000 (Syracuse). Only in the rare instance do you find a private school (and only ones with a comprehensive financial aid packages and 12.6 scholarships) with a complete team.
Syracuse has a good xc team, Penn State a good track team. To each his own. I think what people are up in arms about is that Penn State, with their infinite resources can be good at both. I don't think this is a Syracuse versus Penn State issue but rather Penn State fans being upset with the direction of the program.
Malmo - you are spot on.
I don't envy college coaches.
Perhaps the time they need to be most proactive is in July right after the high school hype is at its peak. Not easy to do remotely. And more to the point, the type that will succeed in college is one with his or her sights on the long term, and who is willing to put in the work, often with no immediate gratification in sight (much different than high school). Not easy to compel a kid to do that. I don't think I could coach well in college today. I don't have the training knowledge (obviously a problem), but my ideas as to what athletes should be are akin to what you and your teammates were - and I am not so sure that it is an easy sell these days.
My brother's college coach - a good one and a friend of your coach's - now deceased - viewed freshmen no differently than in the days when they couldn't compete. Freshmen were there to get adjusted to school, to college levels of training, and to re-orient their ego to college performances. Easier to do back in the day when many track teams actually gave 14 scholarships, and the ones not on scholarship were recruited and darn good athletes in any event.
Your posts are outstanding, and one of your high school rivals, a well known lawyer, and I consistently marvel at your achievements - a topic of conversation when we get together.
Cheers.
One thing I can tell you about Sam B. (and I'd bet I know him better than 99% of you) is that the kid is not a distance runner. He's a 800/1500M guy with the speed of a decent 400 runner. As he matures he may/will develop more endurance as we all do, but I think they are smart to bring him along slowly and build him into it gradually. Too often coaches jump on a kid and either trash them physically in the first few years or burn them out. He will be a strong 2-3 type guy in cross but won't be a stand out as an individual in cross. The distance is beyond him for now. I will say this though, he is more focused now than he was in highschool, and as time goes on and he builds the endurance to go along with speed that I have seen in few other runners, he has the ability to do much more.
Syracuse is fully funded with the maximum amount of scholarships with both genders. It is a big name school in a big name league. They definitely could run an all around program and be competitive throughout. They are choosing not to. The people at Penn State are not being patient with Beth. She had the best track and field program in many years for the men after being the boss for only two years. She decided to build that area 1st. They are very good. The cross country alum's need to think beyond just themselves. They have not had a good men's cross country team since 2000, long before Beth took charge.
You're exactly right. I was able to watch Sam run a lot in high school and while he was successful in xc, he was never terribly impressive. I remember at the Mid East Championships his senior he ran something like 17:00 and was near the back of the race. He's a true track talent who should be better in xc than 28:00...24:00 may be a little lofty though.