A question for race directors: How can a RD screw up the measurement of a 5k?

Honest Question wrote:

So the guys posting in here about measuring courses, how exactly do you guys do it? You use a bicycle, or wheel, or how is it measured? Because obviously the line you take on the course has an effect on the outcome of the distance, right?

Is GPS not as accurate as what you guys do? How about Google Map/Earth? I usually find those both to be very accurate, what do you guys do differently that makes it "Certifiably" accurate? Thanks

Here is an extensive explanation of calibrated bike vs. GPS.

One of my favorite course screw-ups was watching this "kids mile" being raced around a pond where the winner crossed the line in 4:04 at age 12. The race was actually about 1100m or so but it was funny talking to the kid after the race. I remember someone telling him that it wasn't a full mile but he insisted it was because he "clocked it". Now that has become one of the most infamous quotes to use when you "know" how far you have run...lol.

Keith Stone wrote:

Speaking of wee hours, I have a question for Scott. At one point I was going to need to calibrate around 10 at night, measure, mark, etc, for a couple hours then do the post calibration at 2-3 in the morning. Technically, you haven't done all the rides "on the same day".

Have you ever run into this?

JimG answered the question nicely so I'll just add an anecdote (I have lots of stories): in 1990 the Crim 10 mile people wanted to paint a white line around their course & due to some time limitations, I had to take care of the measurement after midnite, midweek in early June. (They could've painted the white line w/out me but they also wanted to note where the mile marks were...thus prompting an inconvenient measurement time.)

I met a friend at the cal course at midnite, calibrated and went to the start line. Fortunately, about 95% of the course is lit. A chief benefit was light traffic but potholes, etc and seeing the counter were troublesome. Things were going fairly uneventfully until the 7 mile point when a neighborhood security patrol stopped us and asked what we were doing. My friend said the magic word 'Crim' which is golden in Flint and we were bid 'good luck'. The very next half mile was mostly in the dark thru a curvy section...which I'm sure wasn't measured SPR- but it was close enough.

At the nine mile mark a guy stopped his car, asked what we were doing & once again my friend said the magic word. The guy told us to be careful because there were others like him out on the roads now that the bars had closed. We thanked him for his concern and watched our rears for the final mile. We finished around 3:30 am. I sent my friend home & I took notes on the mile points, recalibrated and headed home. I was in bed around 5:00 am.

Jeez Scott, I don't think I would have liked riding Crim miles 2-3 or 4 after dark, at least not w/o a police escort and/or a gun. But then, I was in Central Park after midnight last week, so what do I know?

JimG wrote:

Keith, seems like this question could be addressed better on the Course Measurement msg. board. Have you been there? Lots of good stuff for measurement geeks.

Thanks for the link, indeed, much good information there.

JimG wrote:

Jeez Scott, I don't think I would have liked riding Crim miles 2-3 or 4 after dark, at least not w/o a police escort and/or a gun. But then, I was in Central Park after midnight last week, so what do I know?

I had to measure a 5K that went out and back on a busy main road. I had a sheriff's cruiser "blocking" for me with his lights and I still had a Bubba crowding my back wheel.

On race day, one of the locals pulled a gun on one of the race volunteers who was manning an intersection so he could cross the race course without going around.

Don't feel bad. I ran a local 5K recently wherein I ran off course three times, all caused by volunteers who just stood by and watched runners run off course without making an attempt to guide them properly. As I approached a cross road, I would have to ask "which way?" They would just stand there like dumb cows until asked for directions. No arms were raised to guide us properly. Then, there are no results published anywhere. The RD mumbled something at the starting line that if we wanted to find out our finishing time we should ask him later. The 5K had about 200 runners. I wont be back of course.

where on usatf.org does it post the scaling of the 5k for Bastille day? was it really 2.94 or something else.

thanks!

JimG wrote:

Jeez Scott, I don't think I would have liked riding Crim miles 2-3 or 4 after dark, at least not w/o a police escort and/or a gun. But then, I was in Central Park after midnight last week, so what do I know?

Jim, funny you'd mention miles 2-3 on the Crim 10 mile course. That whole stretch is currently under construction and the city claims it'll get done by race day. I'm not so sure and'll look at an alternative soon. But you can bet the workers have been made abundantly aware that the best thing that happens during the entire year in Genesee County needs that stretch of new pavement w/traffic islands by Aug 25. Pressure.

There are certainly parts of Flint to steer clear of at night. The city isn't at the top of the crime charts due to some clerical error. In '90, things weren't as bad. I might request an escort for a similar post-midnite measurement today.

Next time you screw up at your job, remember this and that anyone can screw something up.

Yes, it is a bonehead mistake, but mistakes/errors happen.

The next time you screw up and someone asks if you are dumb cow, think of this.

Large people have feelings too. It's hard for weight challenged people to raise their arms and they were probably tired from the walk there.

jackjohn wrote:

where on usatf.org does it post the scaling of the 5k for Bastille day? was it really 2.94 or something else.

thanks!

With Google Earth I measured from Laflin to Throop and back to Laflin. I then measured from Laflin to Loomis and back to Laflin. (Following the SPR in both cases.) I got a difference of 1324 feet.

So if the issue really was that the course (and the cert map) should have turned on Throop instead of Loomis, the course run on race day was 2.856 miles, or 0.251 miles short of a certified 5k. Basically, a quarter-mile short.

Here's an explanation from some RRTC correspondence.

Apparently when the course was measured, the map indicated the wrong street name (I guess Loomis instead of Throop). The RD knew this, and would set up the course properly.

This year there's a new RD. That person didn't know about the map flip-flop, so followed what was indicated (apparently one of the actual street signs was missing, too - Murphy's Law).

Bottom line, the map is wrong, but no one besides the measurer and the original RD knew it. The map and cert. will be removed from USATF database, and a corrected one put in its place.

Here is a copy of an e-mail reply:

Hello,

I am terribly sorry about your anger and frustration regarding the course at the Bastille Day 5K event.

You are correct. The course was short by 0.3 miles. I am terribly sorry. The certified course map that we used to mark the course was inaccurate – a serious issue we need to take up with USTAF. I can guarantee that this event’s course will be re-certified for 2008 and will be walked with a measuring wheel from start to finish ensuring its accuracy.

I hope you enjoyed the rest of the event – the food, music, the t-shirt, French decorations.

Thank you for your feedback.

akdnrd wrote:

luv2run wrote:

Next time you screw up at your job, remember this and that anyone can screw something up.

Yes, it is a bonehead mistake, but mistakes/errors happen.

The next time you screw up and someone asks if you are lazy, stupid or retarded, think about this post.

This isn't the first time this RD screwed up the mileage for a race in the area. Do you know about the background of the organization that ran the race? Don't try to make it sound like everyone is picking on some kid for mis marking the course.

Tell me, if someone at your job makes the same error 3, 4 or 5 times, do they still have a job? Or maybe you do that, which is why you were so sensitive to the remark.

None of that was in your original post. My question is: If you knew that information going into the race, then why did you run it? (Again, IF you knew that).

Duh uh duh 3.1 miles duh wrote:

Here is a copy of an e-mail reply:

Hello,

I am terribly sorry about your anger and frustration regarding the course at the Bastille Day 5K event.

You are correct. The course was short by 0.3 miles. I am terribly sorry. The certified course map that we used to mark the course was inaccurate – a serious issue we need to take up with USTAF. I can guarantee that this event’s course will be re-certified for 2008 and will be walked with a measuring wheel from start to finish ensuring its accuracy.

I hope you enjoyed the rest of the event – the food, music, the t-shirt, French decorations.

Thank you for your feedback.

So, the RD was neither lazy or stupid or retarded now was he? Instead of gathering the facts, you spouted off in anger.

The RD got the course certified and accepted it as anyone would do (unless you want every RD to bring in another certifier to double check).

When I was younger I would often fly off the handle with comments like yours until after a few times of looking stupid I would check things out.

Not to mention the fact that several people managed to crack 16 minutes on a day with wind chills hovering near zero and gusts around 20mph. I ran on that day and believe me, with several layers on I barely managed to last an hour before my extremities went numb (the tingly, burning sensation). How people managed to get such great times (even after the chip error was fixed) is beyond me. Oh, wait. It's Chicago Special Events Mgmt.