Aerobic Threshold???

It is the timeless wisdom of RunningArt.

Somehow, this doesn't make much sense to me. I would think marathon pace would be closer to anaerobic threshold. If you want to run a marathon at your fastest, you would want to run at the point just before lactate/H+ accumulation begins. If you can build up to being able to run the whole marathon around this pace, than you would obviously be running much faster than if you just stayed at aerobic threshold.

You are somewhat correct. In well trained runnners AeT and AnT are very close. But not every one is the same and trained to the point to where they are close, so there could be a wide gap between the two.

The two threshold will help each other adapt, however too much anaerobic threshold work can be damaging and may even supress your aerobic threshold.

If a not-so well trained runner decided to run just under his/her anaerobic threshold pace, the outcome will not be very good and that pace will deteriorate through out the race.

your wrote -"If you want to run a marathon at your fastest, you would want to run at the point just before lactate/H+ accumulation begins. "

The point where lactate accumulation begins is your "anaerobic" threshold. I think its very unlikely that anyone is able to run 26.2 miles at that pace, after 90mins, (glycogen depletion) you would definantly hit the wall! Since lactate accumulation is due to glycolysis and pyruvate entering the cell for metabolism, fats will not be able to handle the required work for the task at hand.

Nadir wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

The basics of training: Find someone much faster than you. Train how they train, or similar.

Alan

WTF is this?

It's Alan trying to sound like the "gruff old timer" who sets you young whippersnappers straight. You don't need them thar fancy GPS-gizmos and heart-rate whatchamacallits. Back in HIS day...

He wants to be malmo.

WTF it is wrote:It's Alan trying to sound like the "gruff old timer" who sets you young whippersnappers straight.

He's mid-20's, but hasn't shaved since last Tuesday.

Training Guy wrote:

AT does NOT mean Anaerobic Threshold, it means Aerobic Threshold, this is according to USATF, who are trying to standardize terminology.

Maybe USATF has changed their vocabulary? According to my Level II curriculum, they refer to 92% VO2max as being in the "A.T." range. Certainly this does not mean aerobic threshold.

Probably easiest to just keep it AeT and AnT.

hill city wrote:

Dr. Bong-

How are you going to race a marathon at or below Anaerobic Threshold pace????? Everyone I know can't hold 10 mile race pace (AnT pace) for a marathon.

If one subscribes to the idea that the anaerobic threshold is approximately 85% VO2max (USATF) and that marathon pace is approximately 82% VO2max (Martin & Coe), then one would have to agree that marathon pace is at or slightly below anaerobic threshold pace.

Training Guy wrote:

Hadd is popular on here and pegs it at 70-75% Vo2 Max, or between 140 and 150 BPM. 130 BPM I can only assume was around 8:00-9:00 pace.

Why would you run so slow at an 8:00-9:00 pace. If I tried, I'm not sure I could walk that slow.

Go out and run hard and lose weight if you need to do. That's the only way you'll ever improve.

Gimme a break! wrote:

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

I can show you HR graphs of marathons run with HRav 177 in an athlete with an HRmax of 196 (~90% HRmax). I can show you HM races run with 181-183 HRav (~93% HRmax).

Seems like you don't know many well-trained runners...

Does anyone else find humor in this? Didn't Jack Daniels first apply the word "aerobic threshold" to running from its use in swimming? I know he invented (or at least applied) the terms for economy, VO2 max, V dot O2 max, etc.

If Jack Daniels invented the term at least as it applies to running, I believe you're on very shaky ground when you try to argue with him. But...well thats you're prerogative.

I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. And yes, he knows a few well-trained runners, like when he met Joan Benoit Samuelson...while coaching her to a gold medal.

just some guy wrote:I believe you're on very shaky ground when you try to argue with him. But...well thats you're prerogative.

I'm not sure what you thought the previous poster was disagreeing with Daniels about - definition of "aerobic threshold" or typical HR range for marathons and half marathons. I'm pretty sure the point he/she was trying to get across was that HR-marathon is something like 88-90% of HRmax in a well-trained athlete, and not some arbitrary range like 140-150 (or whatever the earlier poster suggested).

I've posted these numbers on another thread recently. These are real data from real runners in real marathons, with varying talent levels (roughly 2:30-3:30). You can see that although their HRmax values vary quite a bit, the average HR over the course of the marathon distance is always between 87-90% HRmax:

Joe A:

HRmax - 184

HRavg for marathon - 161 (88% of HRmax)

Time - 3:01 (2:59 PR)

fast twitch muscle guy

Joe B:

HRmax - 182

2004 HRavg for marathon - 159 (87%)

Time - 2:48 (2:45 PR)

2005 HRavg for marathon – 161 (88.5%)

Time – 2:46:41

fast twitch

Joe C:

HRmax - 200

HRavg for marathon - 178 (89%)

Time - 2:42 (half minute PR)

slow twitch muscle guy

Joe D:

HRmax - 170

HRavg for marathon - 148 (87%)

Time - 3:31 (3:23 PR)

slow twitch

Joe E:

HRmax - 190

HRavg - 169 (89%)

time - 2:31 (previous PR 2:55, but HM PR 1:11)

Joe F:

HRmax - 185

HRav - 166 (89.7%)

2:57 (4 min PR)

Joe G:

HRmax - 182

HRav - 161 (88.5%)

3:08 (PR 2:59)

Joe H (me):

HRmax - 166

HRav - 147 (88.5%)

2:42 (3 min PR)

Now these are just the average HR numbers. If you like, you can look at typical HR profiles over the 26 miles as follows:

Mile - Time - HR avg

-----------------------------------------------

1 - 8:38 - 166

2 - 8:03 - 175

3 - 7:52 - 181

4 - 7:42 - 185

5 - 7:32 - 182

6 - 7:31 - 184

7 - 8:02 - 183

8 - 8:00 - 180

9 - 7:45 - 181

10 - 7:49 - 180

11 - 7:48 - 180

12 - 7:46 - 179

13 - 7:37 - 181

14 - 7:51 - 181

15 - 7:43 - 180

16 - 7:45 - 181

17 - 7:54 - 182

18 - 7:51 - 181

19 - 7:48 - 180

20 - 7:46 - 180

21 - 7:58 - 181

22 - 8:56 - 179

23 - 7:35 - 179

24 - 8:50 - 178

25 - 7:59 - 178

26 - 8:10 - 182

26.2 - 1:54 - 185

6:13.1 @ ?? - HRM not warmed up, mostly downhill, pretty conservative

6:05.7 @ ??/142

5:47.0 @ 140/142

6:15.6 @ 140/148

5:54.7 @ 143/146

6:01.8 @ 144/144

6:06.8 @ 143/145

6:09.0 @ 142/142

6:10.9 @ 145.151

5:55.5 @ 146/144

6:00.0 @ 144/139

6:03.2 @ 145/142

11:57.4 @ 146/145

6:12.1 @ 147/149

6:03.6 @ 147/149

5:59.7 @ 148/147

6:08.7 @ 148/151

6:06.4 @ 149/149

6:11.1 @ 148/150

6:08.8 @ 150/151

6:22.5 @ 149/148

6:33.7 @ 148/147

6:41.9 @ 146/143

6:49.3 @ 145/146

7:16.1 @ 146/146

0:47.4 @ 150/153

Mile 1 - 6:24 (165)

Mile 2 - 6:06 (174)

Mile 3 - 6:08 (173)

Mile 4 - 5:59 (175)

Mile 5 - 6:08 (175)

Mile 6 - 6:16 (175)

Mile 7 - 5:59 (175)

Mile 8 - 6:24 (176)

Mile 9 - 6:07 (176)

Mile 10 - 6:15 (176)

Mile 11 - 6:09 (177)

Mile 12 - 5:58 (177)

Mile 13 - 6:06 (176)

Mile 14 - 6:07 (178)

Mile 15 - 6:11 (178)

Mile 16 - 6:14 (176)

Mile 17 - 6:20 (177)

Mile 18 - 6:18 (176)

Mile 19 - 6:23 (176)

Mile 20 - 6:20 (178

Mile 21 - 6:14 (178)

Mile 22 - 6:15 (181)

Mile 23 - 6:06 (181

Mile 24 - 6:07 (182)

Mile 25 - 6:14 (184)

Mile 26 and a bit - 7:22 (187)

Mile.......Split Time........HRend.......HRavg.......HRmax..........HRmin

1 ............8:11.................145............140 ...........146 .............100

2 ............8:09.................142............145............149..............140

3/4..........8:09.(avg.).........146............143............147..............136

5.............7:42.................145............147............149..............144

6.............8:06.................148............146............149..............140

7.............8:34.................150............144............151..............105

8.............7:37.................152............152............154..............149

9.............7:47.................149............152............154..............148

10...........7:39.................147............151............153..............147

11...........7:46.................152............148............153..............144

12...........8:01.................151............148............152..............144

13...........7:50.................153............150............153..............148

14...........7:52.................151............150............155..............145

15/16......7:45.(avg.).........155............152............155..............147

17...........7:52.................152............153............156..............149

18...........7:59.................150............150............153..............141

19...........7:51.................154............152............155..............149

20...........8:00.................149............153............156..............149

21...........8:15.................150............149............153..............144

22...........8:18.................147............148............152..............144

23...........8:17.................150............149............153..............146

24...........8:35.................147............147............151..............143

25...........8:37.................145............145............148..............143

26...........8:48.................145............145............148..............141

26.22......1:42.(7:44 pace).156............150............156..............145

Mile 1 - 7:13 152

Mile 2 - 6:55 157

Mile 3 - 6:58 158

Mile 4 - 6:53 157

Mile 5 - 6:58 159

Mile 6 - 6:57 158

Mile 7 - 7:02 157

Mile 8 - 6:59 157

Mile 9 - 7:05 157

Mile 10 - 7:00 156

Mile 11 - 6:53 156

Mile 12 - 7:00 157

Mile 13 - 7:01 156

Mile 14 - 6:52 159

Mile 15 - 6:44 160

Mile 16 - 6:50 161

Mile 17 - 6:51 162

Mile 18 - 6:45 162

Mile 19 - 6:53 162

Mile 20 - 6:50 162

Mile 21 - 6:56 163 166

Mile 22 - 6:42 165 169

Mile 23 - 6:48 164 166

Mile 24 - 6:59 162 165

Mile 25 - 6:59 162 170

Mile 26 - 6:49 167 176

You can see that HR tends to drift up throughout the race, although it generally levels off somewhat after halfway. In some cases, it will drop after glycogen stores are mostly/all used up.

I don't have any strong opinion on the "correct" definition of "aerobic threshold" (I like the one Hadd used, but apparently there are others), but I DO know that HR-marathon will be about 88-90% of HRmax, and NOT some absolute number like 140 or 150.

Pete, an important note to add is that them numbers are from ''Hadd trained'' runners, and if not trained properly them numbers will not be possible.

rivas wrote:Pete, an important note to add is that them numbers are from ''Hadd trained'' runners, and if not trained properly them numbers will not be possible.

Read Rivas' post above.

hill city wrote:

Read Rivas' post above.

I have read all posts on this thread. Did you have a point to make?

So what are the differences between "aerobic capacity intervals" and "anaerobic capacity intervals," which are entries on my electronic running log? I usually mark "aerobic capacity intervals" for repeats at 10K-5K pace and "anaerobic capacity intervals" for the faster shorter stuff, but I'm thinking that I may not have that correct. The longer stuff at 10M-MP I usually call tempo or MP.

Katana wrote:

So what are the differences between "aerobic capacity intervals" and "anaerobic capacity intervals," which are entries on my electronic running log? I usually mark "aerobic capacity intervals" for repeats at 10K-5K pace and "anaerobic capacity intervals" for the faster shorter stuff, but I'm thinking that I may not have that correct. The longer stuff at 10M-MP I usually call tempo or MP.

Our aerobic capacity intervals are done at about 100-102% VO2max, or approximately 2M race pace. I agree with your other interpretations.

I'm confused a bit now. I was designated, in order those workouts from shortest and most intense to longest and least intenses: anaerobic capacity intervals (faster than 5K and shorter), aerobic capacity intervals (your typical 1000-1600 repeats at 5-10K, tempo (10M-HM pace, includes cruise intervals). But it sounds like you are saying that aerobic capacity intervals are faster and shorter. Could you set me straight? It doesn't matter that much what I call the workouts, but I might as well be using the correct language. Thanks.

I'm trying to reconcile this thread with what I read in Daniels book. I don't have it in front of me, but as I recall he devoted a chapter to threshold running. If I remember correctly, he was only talking about one threshold pace, not multiple thresholds. Can someone clear this up for me.