But "guilt by association", even many associations, remains a classic fallacy that at best meets the lowest standard of "reasonable suspicion".
There is more than just association going on here. There is a working relationship and I know that agents in Kenya routinely give their athletes "supplements."
I'm not so sure that "agents in Kenya give their athletes supplements" would be enough for the AIU to take to a panel of arbitrators.
This thread is about African runners being coached and represented by people who have a litany of athletes who have been banned. Surprisingly, the banned athletes under said coaches/agents have never come forward about anyone or anything.
The first group of people Bruyneel, Garcia del Moral, Celaya, Marti are all associated with cycling and the famous Lance Armstrong among many other clients. Those dirtbags were prosecuted in western countries some more rule of law abiding (USA, Switzerland) than others (Italy). You throw those names out there to deflect from African runners and the doping apparatus primarily in Kenya, Ethiopia and Uganda. Doping in Cycling, and Lance Armstrongs’ involvement is well know but is not what this thread is about - thus you deflect constantly in posts that imply Kenyan athletes rampant doping and the people/institutions and apparatus.
Drummond - US sprinter. Prosecuted in the US for taking steroids and banned for 8 years.
Victor Conti - US distributor of steroids. Prosecuted and jailed 5years in the US.
Salazar - US runner and coach. Prosecuted in the US and banned 4 years.
Dr Brown - US endocrinologist. Prosecuted in the US for trafficking and administering banned substances to athletes and banned 4 years.
All the people that you mention were prosecuted in Western Countries that operate under rule of law. You failed to mention one African coach, agent etc.
Deflection. And it is my opinion you do this purposely to put doubt in peoples minds about the very real and widespread problems surrounding doping African runners (predominantly Kenyan runners).
Any deflection was "Sitting by the dock of the bay" who asked me "when have Agents, Coaches, Officials been prosecuted?" It happens all the time.
If you want a broader list, I recall a bunch of Russians being prosecuted, a French Gabrielle Dolle, as well as the Senegalese (African) Diacks, and there are a bunch of Chinese on the AIU's list. I recall Kenyan Team Manager Michael Rotich was prosecuted. In Kenya, Ferdinand Omanyala's coach Duncan Ayiemba was sanctioned.
If Western countries and WADA and the AIU and ADAK can reach officials from these countries, surely they can reach the Rosas.
This thread is about Kiplimo and Chebet having the same agent, linking to an opinion in AthleticsIllustrated, insinuating that that is somehow connected to African doping.
My commentary is directly linked to that often expressed opinion, not attempting to downplay the problem of African doping, but asking what does Rosa have to do with any of that?
More importantly, based on what evidence?
If I'm talking about why Rosa was not prosecuted, that is commentary which is squarely on topic -- because the prosecution, by its own admission, lacked the evidence they needed to start the trial.
Three pages in, and there doesn't seem to be any substantial evidence that Rosa is anything more than an agent to his athletes.
But my mind is not made up -- I remain open to considering any substantial evidence which does not fall under "guilt by association" or "imagination".
Salazar once coached 4 of the top six finishers of a world champs 10,000. A few years later, Schumauker had like 8 of his athletes in the 5,000 final (men and women). These 2 stats are way more surprising.
But "guilt by association", even many associations, remains a classic fallacy that at best meets the lowest standard of "reasonable suspicion".
There is more than just association going on here. There is a working relationship and I know that agents in Kenya routinely give their athletes "supplements."
Add to that, that he's financially benefiting from the doped performances.
Has Rosa ever been asked to pay back his percentage of the winnings from doped performances?
That's not merely association - and in a criminal court it'd likely fall foul of "proceeds of crime" laws.
This thread is about African runners being coached and represented by people who have a litany of athletes who have been banned. Surprisingly, the banned athletes under said coaches/agents have never come forward about anyone or anything.
The first group of people Bruyneel, Garcia del Moral, Celaya, Marti are all associated with cycling and the famous Lance Armstrong among many other clients. Those dirtbags were prosecuted in western countries some more rule of law abiding (USA, Switzerland) than others (Italy). You throw those names out there to deflect from African runners and the doping apparatus primarily in Kenya, Ethiopia and Uganda. Doping in Cycling, and Lance Armstrongs’ involvement is well know but is not what this thread is about - thus you deflect constantly in posts that imply Kenyan athletes rampant doping and the people/institutions and apparatus.
Drummond - US sprinter. Prosecuted in the US for taking steroids and banned for 8 years.
Victor Conti - US distributor of steroids. Prosecuted and jailed 5years in the US.
Salazar - US runner and coach. Prosecuted in the US and banned 4 years.
Dr Brown - US endocrinologist. Prosecuted in the US for trafficking and administering banned substances to athletes and banned 4 years.
All the people that you mention were prosecuted in Western Countries that operate under rule of law. You failed to mention one African coach, agent etc.
Deflection. And it is my opinion you do this purposely to put doubt in peoples minds about the very real and widespread problems surrounding doping African runners (predominantly Kenyan runners).
Any deflection was "Sitting by the dock of the bay" who asked me "when have Agents, Coaches, Officials been prosecuted?" It happens all the time.
If you want a broader list, I recall a bunch of Russians being prosecuted, a French Gabrielle Dolle, as well as the Senegalese (African) Diacks, and there are a bunch of Chinese on the AIU's list. I recall Kenyan Team Manager Michael Rotich was prosecuted. In Kenya, Ferdinand Omanyala's coach Duncan Ayiemba was sanctioned.
If Western countries and WADA and the AIU and ADAK can reach officials from these countries, surely they can reach the Rosas.
This thread is about Kiplimo and Chebet having the same agent, linking to an opinion in AthleticsIllustrated, insinuating that that is somehow connected to African doping.
My commentary is directly linked to that often expressed opinion, not attempting to downplay the problem of African doping, but asking what does Rosa have to do with any of that?
More importantly, based on what evidence?
If I'm talking about why Rosa was not prosecuted, that is commentary which is squarely on topic -- because the prosecution, by its own admission, lacked the evidence they needed to start the trial.
Three pages in, and there doesn't seem to be any substantial evidence that Rosa is anything more than an agent to his athletes.
But my mind is not made up -- I remain open to considering any substantial evidence which does not fall under "guilt by association" or "imagination".
I think you are looking through Rosa coloured glasses to suit your own reoccurring narrative away from the obvious… that is Kenya being the epicenter of distance doping athletes, coaches and agents gone crazy. And the corrupt country of Kenya benefiting by not prosecuting those involved in the dirty work.
There is more than just association going on here. There is a working relationship and I know that agents in Kenya routinely give their athletes "supplements."
I'm not so sure that "agents in Kenya give their athletes supplements" would be enough for the AIU to take to a panel of arbitrators.
Sadly you seem to be correct and that is a big problem.
Plus, which agent had over 15 banned sprinters, and was prosecuted on suspicion of doping his athletes? Rosa seems to be unique (or so I hope).
Unique? Look at his protoge Claudio Berardelli. He currently has six athletes under suspension and Wanyonyi’s curious ability to reaccelarate in the last 30m of races makes him a prime candidate to become number seven. These guys are the tip of the iceberg.
Fine... which agent had over 15 banned sprinters, and was investigated by the justice system for months?
I bet the answer for that question is also: no one.
I don't know about agents, but how many sprinters did John Drummond coach? How many clients did Victor Conte have?
Seems like the more important question is how many athletes would it take to turn a fallacy into substantial evidence? I bet the answer is that "over 15" is still a fallacy, wanting for substantial evidence.
The WADA Code spells out the Roles and Responsibilities of Athlete Support Personnel. Nothing says it is a violation of any anti-doping rules to be an agent. There needs to be something else substantial.
Lol. Deflection from "how many banned athletes" to "how many athletes". Nice try.
I think you are looking through Rosa coloured glasses to suit your own reoccurring narrative away from the obvious… that is Kenya being the epicenter of distance doping athletes, coaches and agents gone crazy. And the corrupt country of Kenya benefiting by not prosecuting those involved in the dirty work.
I want to look at it in the light of substantial evidence, and not fallacy and fan-fiction.
Lol. Deflection from "how many banned athletes" to "how many athletes". Nice try.
Mathing it out wrote:
... and you ignored the part with the justice system. What's your agenda here?
OK, how many banned athletes then? And was Rosa actually investigated by the justice system for months? Evidence of investigation? Any results? They ultimately dropped the charges saying they still needed to investigate, and they would come back if they ever found something. Here we are nearly 10 years later, saying it will be interesting if they ever find something.
My agenda here is to request any substantial evidence, because I find fallacy is not persuasive, and this cannot be cured by adding more instances of fallacy.
Everyone else is deflecting from and ignoring this.
I think you are looking through Rosa coloured glasses to suit your own reoccurring narrative away from the obvious… that is Kenya being the epicenter of distance doping athletes, coaches and agents gone crazy. And the corrupt country of Kenya benefiting by not prosecuting those involved in the dirty work.
By the way, East Africa has been the epicenter of distance athletes since their emergence in World Cross Country in the 1980s. When I counted "top athletes" (faster than a 1990 benchmark) between 1990-2018, Kenyans accounted for 56% of them, Ethiopians 22%, remaining East Africans 6.7%, North Africans 7.4%, and the rest of the world 8%.
This depth of top talent will skew all numbers, including number of doped athletes.
To put it in better perspective, we should look at percentages of athletes doped to total athletes, whether in Kenya, or in Rosa's stable, and not be unduly impressed by absolute numbers which are skewed by a such a magnitude of depth of top talent.
Dude, they cheat. Sure there are people cheating everywhere but Africa is the worst. Behind closed doors that laugh at dopes like you who blindly defend them.
Is it fair that they are allowed to compete in road races and get paid prize and appearance money when today there are things like the Enhanced Games for them to compete in instead?
Why do I need to get that evidence? That's a job for the AIU or ADAK.
But in the WADA Code, there is a clause that give athletes a reduced sentence for cooperation. Mathew Kisorio was begging to talk to anyone who would listen, even being interviewed by the German investigative journalist Hajo Seppelt.
Rosa is a mobster? WADA can't sanction anyone based on fan fiction. I can be persuaded with real substantial evidence, but not with fallacies and fan fiction.
Imagine you hire a house cleaner. One day when s/he is coming you leave a fifty dollar bill in plain sight and when you get home it's gone. You have no proof the cleaner took it but no one would say you don't have grounds to fire her. Innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept which protects that house cleaner from prosecution if her employer is wrong about what happened to that cash.
WADA could sanction Rosa if it wanted to. WADA could create a general policy of sanctioning agents who have X number of athletes caught doping in Y amount of time. And doing this would not only protect non Kenyans from doping Kenyans. It would also protect non doping Kenyans from doping ones
But doing what it does, well really what it doesn't do, waiting for some sort of irrefutable evidence of wrong doing in reality means the current situation can never change.
But road race organizers would keep on inviting the house cleaner into their home because it is not their fifty dollar bill that is disappearing - most of it comes from from people paying their race entry fees (do the Kenyans actually pay their race entry fees ?) and from the race sponsors. There needs to be some leverage made on road race organizers to stop them from inviting doping Kenyans over to their races. There are a few ways this could be done. For example, local government could stop road race organizers from using the roads for races if they are inviting doping athletes to compete on the grounds that organized crime should not be invited into their towns or streets. Or, if a Kenyan athlete who won the road race eventually tests positive then the road race organizer could be sued as they gave prize money away to someone who was cheating and not to someone else who was repsecting the rules.
The sport's governing bodies are not dealing with the problem (which could be easily solved by banning Kenya for 5 or 10 years) so to solve the problem pressure needs to put on race organizers as they are effectively enabling the problem to continue.
Dude, they cheat. Sure there are people cheating everywhere but Africa is the worst. Behind closed doors that laugh at dopes like you who blindly defend them.
In that case, it should be straightforward to provide some supporting evidence 1) just how many are cheating, as a percentage, compared to the rest of the world and 2) that cheating would actually make them faster than without.
As much as I trust posters like "Surely a Fact" to give me the inside scoop, seems like a trivial ask before blindly trusting these kinds of posters.