I'd say Touhy was better than 'pretty good' in college, but otherwise I agree with you.
Her 1-2 yr college run was very similar to Jenny Simpson with wins and records.
What hurts her claims though is Valby came along the next year and did almost the same and then added the Olympics. Meanwhile even Grace Hartman and Napoleon at her own school are duplicating or beating her times.
Still 5 nxn races w/ 3 titles, and 4 ncaa xc all american w/ 1 title and 3 team wins is hard to beat for durability and consistency.
The issue with 'generational' is that a generation is 15-20 years, ie was she the best runner of her generation? Well no.
Cain, Efraimson, Hedengren, Engelhardt, Hutchins, Cook and Leachman at high school level are faster, Valby, Hartman, Napoleon and perhaps shortly Hedengren are faster at college level. Cranny, Houlihan and Purrier as pros.
My guess when the dust settles Cain and Hedengren will be the 'generational' talents, also Cranny and Simpson very good at 3 levels of hs, college and pro.
Still it will be Hasay and Tuohy that had the biggest impact on the general public, and these two both had longevity that others will not be able to match. (Hasay 4 Foot Lockers, 2 wins, 4 yr Oregon career, and brief but effective pro marathon success)
Hedengren shouldn’t be in the same sentence as those people. Rather than being a generational talent, she’s the best one, ever. Her 2-mile record is mind boggling and boys with that time have qualified for state out of the Sac Joaquin Section. It might be 50 years before her records are broken.
Except for the 3000m, Hedengren had already surpassed Tuohy’s career PRs and Hassay’s career best is 15:28. Hedengren probably won’t run a 10000m next year, but it’s likely she’ll surpass all of Valby’s other PRs next spring.
She ran slower than Valby in college. She ran slower than Roe as a pro. She ran slower lifetime than Jane. They are all the same generation. Tuohy would hsve been a nobody if she was Jane's grade.
To be fair, Tuohy is more of a 1500/5k type and has the collegiate record in the women's 3000m, which Valby only ran .2 seconds faster than as a pro last indoor season. Neither her nor Roe came close to that in college, or could come close to Tuohy in a 1500. Jane hasn't run that fast in the 3k either but that will clearly change soon.
There are no age group awards anymore. Tuohy is slower than Monsoon, Schweizer, Hedengren, Cranny, Roe, ESP, Hiltz, and others. They are all in the same generation. People were ridiculous to predict Tuohy was a generational talent. Her name will be off of every list within a year or two.
She ran slower than Valby in college. She ran slower than Roe as a pro. She ran slower lifetime than Jane. They are all the same generation. Tuohy would hsve been a nobody if she was Jane's grade.
To be fair, Tuohy is more of a 1500/5k type and has the collegiate record in the women's 3000m, which Valby only ran .2 seconds faster than as a pro last indoor season. Neither her nor Roe came close to that in college, or could come close to Tuohy in a 1500. Jane hasn't run that fast in the 3k either but that will clearly change soon.
Valby is faster than Tuohy at 3000 now. We know this because they both ran a 3000 weeks apart this year. If they raced tomorrow at this distance, I’d bet my house on Valby. We don’t know with the 1500 because Valby doesn’t race that distance. She might surprise if she were to try it, assuming she’s in shape.
There are no age group awards anymore. Tuohy is slower than Monsoon, Schweizer, Hedengren, Cranny, Roe, ESP, Hiltz, and others. They are all in the same generation. People were ridiculous to predict Tuohy was a generational talent. Her name will be off of every list within a year or two.
It wasn’t ridiculous at all to think she had great potential and it’s a bit of head scratcher as to why she has struggled the last couple of years.
I define generational talent to be an assessment of potential coming of HS and not for a career.
Still it will be Hasay and Tuohy that had the biggest impact on the general public, and these two both had longevity that others will not be able to match. (Hasay 4 Foot Lockers, 2 wins, 4 yr Oregon career, and brief but effective pro marathon success)
We're splitting hairs. Was she one of the most talented high schoolers ever? I can see how people are saying no.
But whatever you want to call her, she was one of the most accomplished high school runners ever. Many of them, especially on the women's side, have no success in college.
Tuohy defied those odds. And overall, it was pretty good in college. But once again, a lot of college runners are not that good as pros.
There's no guarantee she'd be a superstar if healthy, but I can't believe people are asking "What happened to Tony?" What happened is she's been injured as a pro.
A remarkably coherent and accurate post from a Brojo.
I think there are two things lost in this conversation:
1. Times are getting faster at every level. There are better shoes, nutrition, recovery tools, training methods, etc. that are mainstream to high school kids now, even more so then when Tuohy was growing up. I think part of her success was that she utilized some advancements in training and recovering before her peers, allowing her to excel on hard work and clearly some genetic gifts.
Jane is incredibly fast, and definitely has the potential to be a generational talent, but her times don't seem that insane compared to the performance wave happening at the top of every level. She is also older for her grade with high level training, so her times this past spring would be like she is a freshman in college (still impressive, but changes the perspective).
2. Unfortunately, a lot of high school girl phenoms burn out. It seems like Tuohy didn't take shortcuts with body composition as a teen, allowing her to have a strong collegiate career. But a lot of the most talented girls skyrocket to success only to face years of injury setbacks or mysterious health issues and never be back in the same form.
Mary Cain had a train-wreck of pro career. Remember when Allie O almost won NCAA XC as a true freshman? What happened to Natalie Cook? Parker Valby hasn't become the standout pro people were predicting this year. I hope that doesn't happen to Jane, but time will tell.
TLDR; everyone is getting faster and it is impossible to predict the future.
I'd say Touhy was better than 'pretty good' in college, but otherwise I agree with you.
Her 1-2 yr college run was very similar to Jenny Simpson with wins and records.
What hurts her claims though is Valby came along the next year and did almost the same and then added the Olympics. Meanwhile even Grace Hartman and Napoleon at her own school are duplicating or beating her times.
Still 5 nxn races w/ 3 titles, and 4 ncaa xc all american w/ 1 title and 3 team wins is hard to beat for durability and consistency.
The issue with 'generational' is that a generation is 15-20 years, ie was she the best runner of her generation? Well no.
Cain, Efraimson, Hedengren, Engelhardt, Hutchins, Cook and Leachman at high school level are faster, Valby, Hartman, Napoleon and perhaps shortly Hedengren are faster at college level. Cranny, Houlihan and Purrier as pros.
My guess when the dust settles Cain and Hedengren will be the 'generational' talents, also Cranny and Simpson very good at 3 levels of hs, college and pro.
Still it will be Hasay and Tuohy that had the biggest impact on the general public, and these two both had longevity that others will not be able to match. (Hasay 4 Foot Lockers, 2 wins, 4 yr Oregon career, and brief but effective pro marathon success)
Hedengren shouldn’t be in the same sentence as those people. Rather than being a generational talent, she’s the best one, ever. Her 2-mile record is mind boggling and boys with that time have qualified for state out of the Sac Joaquin Section. It might be 50 years before her records are broken.
Except for the 3000m, Hedengren had already surpassed Tuohy’s career PRs and Hassay’s career best is 15:28. Hedengren probably won’t run a 10000m next year, but it’s likely she’ll surpass all of Valby’s other PRs next spring.
so far. What do we do if 5 years from now someone is even faster? Mock Jane for being declared a generational talent? That seems to be how some operate. All you can do is judge someone on what you know, not some unknown future. Tuohy was better than those who came before her. Now her times have been surpassed. I think some here declared Valby was the best but now it seems Jane will better her marks.
Mary Cain is the perfect example. I think everyone would agree she was a high school generational talent making the world's final while in high school. But she showed what a lot of top high schoolers show: success at 16, especially for the women, does not necessarily mean success at 26.
You stuck in age groups Ping was best in JH. So what? Tuohy was great in HS. Both suck now. Dozens of Americans are faster. Jane aepears to be a generational talent. We.don't know yet. Michael Jordan was a generational talent. He wasnt good in HS. No basketball fans are saying the guys who were nba flops in Jordan's generation were generational talents. Only a handful of nutty Tuohy fans can't let.go.
You stuck in age groups Ping was best in JH. So what? Tuohy was great in HS. Both suck now. Dozens of Americans are faster. Jane aepears to be a generational talent. We.don't know yet. Michael Jordan was a generational talent. He wasnt good in HS. No basketball fans are saying the guys who were nba flops in Jordan's generation were generational talents. Only a handful of nutty Tuohy fans can't let.go.
you apparently don't understand English. I said nothing about ages.
Can we talk about this like adults? She was suppossed to be a generational talent. Granted, she seemed to be on track to be through high school. Then she did some good stuff in college. But then she just stopped improving. A high school girl ran faster than her lifetime best. She is now an average pro in the US which is a country not overly competitive on the world stage. Did she train too hard too early? Did she dope? Did she gain weight? Did she just develop early? This type of topic comes up regarding females but it always turns into emotional attacks.
This is probably controversial to say but, my unprofessional take?
The thing that catapulted her to success in college is the very thing that’s holding her back as a pro. Her “Wolfpack” team. She’s chosen to stay near her college, training with them, without anyone pushing her. She’s likely one of (if not the) fastest in her group, at sea level.
What she needs is extended altitude training, a new, strong team of fast women, and to look ahead in her career, not behind.
She is living and training like a college student, not like someone who will qualify for the Olympics.
Ahhhhh......Someone who gets it!! 100%.
Kinda sounds like another "Generational" talent that did the same thing, and only over the past couple years began to understand the importance of a quality training group and being a "real" professional runner. Unfortunately, he's too late!