Funny, but now there's more participants and more knowledge of training than in the 1880's.
Are there?
Crowds of tens of thousands showed up to see Walter George race. There was beer, gambling, ladies dressed up. Very popular sport. Who shows up now?
Few records survive, but there must have been massive participation, with the sound fundamentals of training securely in place. Just as with rounders, fisticuffs and football.
I think the every record is due to doping is too pessimistic. The fact that so many athletes are caught using PEDs means (1) it is hard to get away with, and (2) the incentives to get away with it even for a bit are huge. Lance Armstrong is the richest disgraced athlete in the world. If you win prize money by using a PED, you keep it even if you get caught later. That said, if the WR is close to the second, and third best times, and progress was spread out among athletes and somewhat over time (allow for compression due to new technologies like super shoes), then I think you can say the WR is legit. Well, legit after you remove those caught doping post-ratification.
Funny, but now there's more participants and more knowledge of training than in the 1880's.
Are there?
Crowds of tens of thousands showed up to see Walter George race. There was beer, gambling, ladies dressed up. Very popular sport. Who shows up now?
Few records survive, but there must have been massive participation, with the sound fundamentals of training securely in place. Just as with rounders, fisticuffs and football.
Track was much more a spectators' sport than a participant sport until maybe the late 60s. Information about how to train was spotty. In western Pennsylvania in the late 60s we had no idea of what to do unless you had a knowledgeable coach which few of us did. There was nowhere near the information available that there is now. George got his record basically by running in place.
I find it hard to believe somebody like Cam Myers or Hobbs Kessler or Ethan Strand are dirty. Maybe I’m naive and don’t think these younger kids are doping. Maybe they’re doing grey area stuff. Maybe the bicarb and the shoes are truly that good. Tough to tell.
They’re likely doping. I have a hunch every elite is. It’s too easy to get away with, and none of these guys or women throughout the years has struck me in the least bit as humble and honest. Look beyond the obvious front they put up and I see a lot of deceit, manipulation, narcissism, hubris, and selfishness. Every one of them would risk cheating to win and be famous. No exceptions.
Im incredibly skeptical of the sport being clean as well, but here’s me playing devil’s advocate:
if many many athletes are doping, where are they getting the drugs?
humans are such lousy secret-keepers, and you have to imagine at least one person could piss off their doctor/supplier or fellow athlete who also knows they’re doping, and rat them out as revenge. it’d be quite easy to anonymously tip the press off to a doper. Boom, you’re caught or implicated.
so, it seems crazy so many scattered all over the world of all levels could keep the purchase, communication, and transport of drugs secret from so many without a slip up. It’s not like Walgreens or some ubiquitous company sells EPO in every city.
who knows, but I’m definitely cynical of all amazing performances these days.
Explanation: I think Bolt, Rudisha, and Bekele are just freak talents. Van Niekirk appears clean to me because he wasn't consistently running crazy times, which tends to be more possible with drugs. I know it's controversial, but I think Lagat was clean. I think he was just another freak talent. I believe Jakob is clean as well, he's been trained so well from so young, he's basically a science experiment, and he has some talent, so shocker he's fast. I think there's a lot of money in the half and full marathon, so there's rampant doping in those events. That's why I had to go so far down the list for the half marathon, but I believe Haile and Eliud are clean.
When WADA have to release a statement, publicly criticizing the lack of testing in Jamaica, and then conduct an audit, then you know they had (have?) an issue with doping. Just so happened to be when Bolt was competing.
In 2010 WADA had to dissolve the board of JADCO because it contained the country's head of athletics – an obvious conflict of interest.
Jamaican antidoping only did ONE out of competition test during the spring/summer of 2012. "Jamaica is a high priority. They're on our radar. There was a period during the beginning part of 2012 where there was no effective operation. No testing. So we were worried about it." said David Howman, WADA's then director general.
Jamaica started blood testing it's athletes year after most other countries.
And y'all think Bolt was clean?! If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Same for McLaughlin. People are happy to point out the freakish performances of the women's marathon WR, yet you don't think 50.37 over the HURDLES is just as outlandish? And they're talking about sub 50 being possible and no one is even batting an eye lid?! The next best time/runner is basically ONE SECOND behind (scrap the near altitude assisted 50.95...). It's no coincidence that the man that took a woman to 10.49 (Flo Jo); 7,291 (JJK) & from 52.08(79) & 53.61(83) to 48.83(84) - Brisco-Hooks) is the same man coaching Sydney.
In western Pennsylvania in the late 60s we had no idea of what to do unless you had a knowledgeable coach which few of us did. There was nowhere near the information available that there is now. George got his record basically by running in place.
Bah! Coaches still don't know anything. There's a couple of "elite coaches" posting on this board with real elite runners in their stable. You can tell they are clueless, even though their runners are good.
Running in place was George's "super shoes" hoax to throw you off the fact that he knew everything about drugs, had access to them, and noone could stop him.
Your problem in western Pennsylvania is Appalachia doesn't care about running. There was a thread about that recently.
This is such a hard question to answer. I started to make a list before I realized I was entirely skipping over Kenyan, Ethiopian, and Jamaican athletes by default. I think that's justified, given these countries' track records with doping, but its an uncomfortable thing to put to writing.
I then started considering if I can really say the US is any better. As a nation our education, access to information, and overall development is just so much better that its hard to argue that the US doesn't dope too - we're probably just a lot better at getting away with it.
That's the really tragic part of a bust like Chepn'getich. Each and every athlete can suddenly appear suspect. But without concrete proof of doping, either you have to believe everyone without a positive test is clean or everyone is doping and just getting away with it. Its such a zero sum game, and it throws the whole sport into question.
In western Pennsylvania in the late 60s we had no idea of what to do unless you had a knowledgeable coach which few of us did. There was nowhere near the information available that there is now. George got his record basically by running in place.
Bah! Coaches still don't know anything. There's a couple of "elite coaches" posting on this board with real elite runners in their stable. You can tell they are clueless, even though their runners are good.
Running in place was George's "super shoes" hoax to throw you off the fact that he knew everything about drugs, had access to them, and noone could stop him.
Your problem in western Pennsylvania is Appalachia doesn't care about running. There was a thread about that recently.
Of course you'd know what it was like trying to find information about how to train before 1970 and what Walter George did and didn't do more than the guy who actually researched his life to write a book about him. Thanks for clearing things up.
I don't think I can honestly say I believe Bolt is clean. I think his records came at a time when he had essentially transcended the sport and knew that no matter how outrageous of a time he ran, he'd be protected. So he ran out of his mind and got away with it. Like Icarus without the fall.
Anyway, the better question might be who among current the record holders are/were clean. That's a much much shorter list. Off the top of my head the only ones I would be willing to put money on being clean are Karsten Warholm and Mondo. I go back and forth on Jakob.
Some events you don't have to go too far down the list to find the first person most likely to be clean. Holloway in the 110mH (#2 all time). Quincy Hall in the 400m (#4 all time). Arop in the 800m (#4 all time). Others you have to go further down the list. I don't believe any of the top 25 times in the half marathon were clean.