To be fair - he voluntarily blew the whistle as a matter of conscience, no? It's not like he was snookered and had no other option than to inform. Surely that has to be a big mitigating factor.
It's not exactly a silent ban, but USADA has allowed doping athletes to continue competing on condition that they turn informant. WADA doesn't agree with this approach but Travis Tygart just does whatever he wants.
I can see the rationale behind using informants to catch the big players, but surely this should be discussed and implemented at a global level if a consensus can be formed and clear rules and procedures implemented etc.
It seems really dodgy the way they are openly doing a solo run here. Typical yanks, one rule for them, another for everybody else.
The type of "silent ban" that I referenced is the biggest and most real silent ban. It's not just an interesting point of discussion. You are referencing some type of "official silent ban" protocol that is adopted by either testing agencies or federations, which is, in fact ludicrous.
You can't actually have a silent ban using the definition you are listing in your 3 points because those are incomplete. If it isn't opened up and released fully to the sporting world, the competitors, and everyone involved in the sport, fans included, it really isn't a ban. It's something else.
The full force and weight of the guilt, positive test, and sanctions, both official and unofficial haven't come to bear on the head of the "positive testee."
My example is more of the type of thing that would be a secret sworn to a very few. If a GIANT star(face of the sport type) was popped, they would keep something like that to less than 5 people. THAT is a silent ban.
If you have followed the sport for 45 years, and kept your ear to the ground, like me. You would have heard the same stories about the type of cover-up I referenced from all the many vantage points that I have, high school AA, NCAA D1 AA, Olympic Trials Qualifier, Pro Track and Road Runner, Division 1 Coach, Olympic Athlete Coach, etc.
What I am saying to you is that there are people know who, with what, when, and where these truths happened, but they aren't talking. In some cases we are talking about peoples legacies in the sport. It's the way business is done, which at the end of the day, is what we are talking about.
This looks like pure conspiracy. Maybe the reason "We Missed it!" is because the stories you have heard are just stories that people tell each other, which grow over time.
We have seen exceptions like Russia, but even then, there were several whistleblowers who were not silent.
If I'm wrong, why don't you share with us some of the stories of the biggest legacies which have been kept silent -- as well as how many degrees away you are from these legacies?
This x1000. All these people need to put up or shut up.
If these people actually do have all this insider information and won't actually share it and expose the cheaters then they're just cowardly. We're talking athletics here, you're not putting away the Five Families But I suspect they have no such thing and are just bluffing away on here to try and seem important.
It's not exactly a silent ban, but USADA has allowed doping athletes to continue competing on condition that they turn informant. WADA doesn't agree with this approach but Travis Tygart just does whatever he wants.
I can see the rationale behind using informants to catch the big players, but surely this should be discussed and implemented at a global level if a consensus can be formed and clear rules and procedures implemented etc.
It seems really dodgy the way they are openly doing a solo run here. Typical yanks, one rule for them, another for everybody else.
It's more like typical Tygart. People act like he's an anti-doping crusader but really he's an empire builder. His main concern is gaining more influence over WADA which is why sometimes he's on the right side of doping cases, and sometimes he's on the wrong side. The only consistent factor is whatever side he's on, it furthers his own ambitions rather than enhancing the cause of clean sport.
I can see the rationale behind using informants to catch the big players, but surely this should be discussed and implemented at a global level if a consensus can be formed and clear rules and procedures implemented etc.
It seems really dodgy the way they are openly doing a solo run here. Typical yanks, one rule for them, another for everybody else.
It's more like typical Tygart. People act like he's an anti-doping crusader but really he's an empire builder. His main concern is gaining more influence over WADA which is why sometimes he's on the right side of doping cases, and sometimes he's on the wrong side. The only consistent factor is whatever side he's on, it furthers his own ambitions rather than enhancing the cause of clean sport.
Right.. that's interesting. Didn't know the ins and outs of it.
Speaking of silent bans, Tygart was involved, as legal counsel and member of their National Board of Review, in the silent bans USA Swimming imposed as a consequence of their sex scandals (and were later published). Yes, the bans that enabled the banned coaches a.k.a. sex abusers to keep coaching.
There he was also in charge of the Chocron (one of the sex abusers) hearing - despite his conflict of interest.
To be fair - he voluntarily blew the whistle as a matter of conscience, no? It's not like he was snookered and had no other option than to inform. Surely that has to be a big mitigating factor.
I'm not talking so much about Magness' act and motivations, but how USADA should consider any mitigating factors under the WADA Code. USADA must charge and sanction the athlete first. Apparently USADA did not, and WADA expressed their concern for this deviation (but at the same time, WADA did not enforce it either). Only then can USADA consider mitigatiing factors, including reducing the sanction, up to a maximum of 75%, for providing substantial assistance. After that, upon request, WADA can reduce the sanction further, or even eliminate the sanction. (See WADA Code section 10.7.1.1 and 10.7.1.2).
If Track and Field does silent bans, they would have to keep that silent from the athletes and certainly from that athletes main competitors.
That is the one reason I think track might not be as dirty as I think. All these years and basically no tell all info dumps by anyone. All those AlSal investigations and we get some grey zone stuff and not some Lance level EPO doping…
I'm not talking so much about Magness' act and motivations, but how USADA should consider any mitigating factors under the WADA Code. USADA must charge and sanction the athlete first. Apparently USADA did not, and WADA expressed their concern for this deviation (but at the same time, WADA did not enforce it either). Only then can USADA consider mitigatiing factors, including reducing the sanction, up to a maximum of 75%, for providing substantial assistance. After that, upon request, WADA can reduce the sanction further, or even eliminate the sanction. (See WADA Code section 10.7.1.1 and 10.7.1.2).
Yes exactly. That is another good example of USADA's willingness to ignore the rules, and WADA (grudgingly?) accepting it.
Yes exactly. That is another good example of USADA's willingness to ignore the rules, and WADA (grudgingly?) accepting it.
Rules are rules, but they are not infallible. Don't forget that ZERO tolerance is also ZERO intelligence. The goal is to catch and punish the bad guys, in order to protect the good guys, and not blindly apply rules at all costs -- rules that are cleverly crafted by WADA lawyers to be overbroad by design, to favor anti-doping organizations. WADA reserves the power and authority to consider the circumstances and any nuance on a case by case basis -- to act as a benevolent dictator.
While my reading of the rules says Magness should have been charged and sanctioned for at least 6 months (similar to what Tygart/USADA did to several of Armstrong's team mates), there seems to be a consensus that assistant coach Magness, who was still registered as an athlete and racing, is not the bad guy that WADA wants to punish, and that for WADA to appeal and get Magness sanctioned may do more long term harm, if the message sent is that WADA wants to punish whistleblowers. The problem here seems to be a lack of flexibility in the rules.
As an aside, specific to L-Carnitine, WADA didn't seem too concerned about the 50ml infusions either, as their next move was to relax the limit from 50ml/6 hours to 100ml/12 hours.
I can agree there is a certain "ends justifies the means" approach to some of what Tygart's USADA does (although he did say he had WADA's buy-in for letting informant dopers compete without public disclosure), but I think his motivation to protect innocent athletes is sincere.
If Track and Field does silent bans, they would have to keep that silent from the athletes and certainly from that athletes main competitors.
That is the one reason I think track might not be as dirty as I think. All these years and basically no tell all info dumps by anyone. All those AlSal investigations and we get some grey zone stuff and not some Lance level EPO doping…
I get what you are saying, and judging by the upvotes/downvotes, it will surely not be popular. Maybe with my endorsement, it will become even less popular, but I think you are right. (Almost) nothing rises to the Armstrong level of sophisticated doping and evasion.
I think some people simply want there to be a big hidden scandal and coverup -- they seem to want the gossip for its own sake. Maybe they feel that track and field will become a forgotten sport, left out of discussions, and that any discussion that puts the sport in the minds of the people is good.
You are right that cycling in the '90s, doping was a poorly kept secret, resulting in several "tell alls" including Armstrong's famous confessions on Oprah -- there may be loads that we still don't know, but many athletes from the peloton came forward and did tell us what was going on, despite the Omerta.
By comparison, let's look at some of the recent "scandals" that garnered many headlines and photos and clicks.
You mentioned AlSal. Salazar and several NOP athletes were investigated for 5 years, resulting in an investigation with "more than 2,000 exhibits, ... 30 witnesses and 5,780 pages of transcripts." They weren't relying on lab test results with a 1-2% hit rate, but state of the art investigation techniques with interviews from former and current insider employees, athletes, and other witnesses, and emails and documents, etc. leaving "no stone unturned". Yet no NOP athletes were ever suspended or charged, let alone convicted or sanctioned. Not much was told in this "tell all" about the athletes themselves. So which athletes were protected here? Sure -- I have no question the testosterone experiment on Salazar's non-athlete sons raises many questions across the board, and perhaps violated state and federal laws, but even the AAA Panel was convinced that the concern for potential Gatlin-esque sabotage was real, based on contemporaneous emails. This was not some secret experiment designed to dope athletes below detectable thresholds. But this testosterone experiment didn't require a 5-year investigation, as Salazar basically confessed to conducting the experiment in his lengthy response to the sensational Pro Publica/BBC Panorama pieces. A significant focus of the investigation was whether any NOP athletes were administered a legal substance (L-Carnitine) via an illegal method (infusions with too much liquid in too short of time).
Jama Aden made many headlines with his arrest in Sabadell. Who didn't enjoy seeing photos of a hooded Aden being dragged away in cuffs in a secret Spanish hideaway location? Sounds like a basis for a good crime drama. Yet after a long criminal investigation and trial lasting years, Aden was eventually, but quietly, cleared by the Spanish Criminal Courts. He was never suspended nor charged with any violation of anti-doping rules by the IAAF. The criminal court verdict was so quiet, letsrun only reported the court result 7-months after the fact. In that raid, Balla was charged with and convicted of possession, but no Aden athletes were charged with presence or use of any substance or method, as a result of the Sabadell raid. Which athletes were protected here?
Rosa Jr. was famously dragged into the Kenyan courts for his alleged role in Kenyan doping. The judge opened an empty file and essentially asked, "Why are we here?" and dismissed the case for a complete lack of evidence.
One disappointment for me was the lack of any real information from the case of Mathew Kisorio. He seemed to want to "tell all" to everyone who would listen, even interviewing with famous doping journalist Hajo Seppelt. Yet the information published seemed wanting. As the French say "en peu peu", or a little too little. I can't recall the names of any enablers, leading to any further sanctions, and it's not even clear what substances Kisorio took, besides the steroids he was busted for, as he didn't know himself, but just recounted what he was told to convince him to dope.
We can go back to Russia and the IAAF scandal -- that was real, and involved many IAAF and Russian officers and officials. The IAAF, and the Russians, took a huge reputational hit, for allowing this to happen undetected by most. But this looks like the scope was limited to Diack's inner circle working with Russian officials to extort Russian athletes, just starting to expand to Turkish athletes, before the whole thing was exposed by insiders and multiple whistleblowers. This led to investigations by the IAAF Ethics Commission (resulting in 3 lifetime bans and a 5-year ban), and the creation of a WADA Independent Commission which recommended banning the Russian Federation ARAF, and RUSADA, and WADA revoking the compliant status of the Moscow lab. That was a real scandal and there was lots of "tell all info dumps".
But even that scandal wasn't big enough for some, as a big blood-data leak wanted some to allege IAAF's inaction, and put athletes like Paula Radcliffe in the headlines, and some British Parliamentarians seemed to want to drag Coe in the middle of it (settling old scores?) and hold him accountable for the acts of his predecessors.
In track, the real scandals seem to be sparsely peppered through time, with examples like sprinters taking designer steroids, and questionable Chinese women performances in two Chinese meets, and masculine Eastern women competing in the '70s and '80s still holding some records today, and some national testing and cover-ups (e.g. USA) in the '80s, before organized anti-doping. Nothing seems to rise to the level of what we know happened in cycling in the Armstrong era.
But that's just my opinion. Happy to be proven wrong.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Reason provided:
The Clear
I'm no expert, but I'd imagine that German Data Protection is based off the principles in the EU's GDPR directive. If that's the case then I don't see why the anti-doping agencies of any other EU countries are declining to name guilty athletes. Intuitively it seems like BS to me.
I'm not an expert either but I work with companies in many countries and Germany stands out a mile for it's strict data protection laws. Think of it as GDPR++. It isn't only the literal law either but the general culture/mindset, at least in the business world. Why it's like that I'm not sure but have heard it's a hangover from the war (actual war and cold war).
Great thread btw. It should stand as an example of how to guide a discussion, keep it on topic, and keep it civil. Nice job!
Well... we had two world record holders in distance running banned in this year alone. We also had Balco + NOP + Russia, while cycling had US Postal and Telekom.
Our stuff seems to be more recent too. When is the last time an Olympic champion or Major race winner or world record holder was banned in cycling?
Peak systemic doping: ✅ Worse (1990s–2000s, teams & doctors involved) - ❌ Usually individual (except Russia, East Germany) State-sponsored doping: Rare - ✅ Russia, East Germany Detection & suspensions (2020s): Less frequent now - More suspensions lately, esp. Kenya Cultural change post-scandal: ✅ Significant reforms (biological passport, retesting) - Mixed — more fragmented globally Current doping concern: Moderate - High, especially in endurance events Media/public perception: Still tainted by past - Still under scrutiny
Well... we had two world record holders in distance running banned in this year alone. We also had Balco + NOP + Russia, while cycling had US Postal and Telekom.
Our stuff seems to be more recent too. When is the last time an Olympic champion or Major race winner or world record holder was banned in cycling?
Peak systemic doping: ✅ Worse (1990s–2000s, teams & doctors involved) - ❌ Usually individual (except Russia, East Germany) State-sponsored doping: Rare - ✅ Russia, East Germany Detection & suspensions (2020s): Less frequent now - More suspensions lately, esp. Kenya Cultural change post-scandal: ✅ Significant reforms (biological passport, retesting) - Mixed — more fragmented globally Current doping concern: Moderate - High, especially in endurance events Media/public perception: Still tainted by past - Still under scrutiny
That still doesn't seem comparable to cycling in the 1990s. There are still no "tell all info dumps by anyone".
As you didn't say, the two world record/best holders provisionally suspended (not yet banned): Koech, who ran a world best in 10-miles on the road 2 years ago breaking Gebrselassie's 2005 best, is provisionally suspended for ABP. And we don't yet know what Kandie, former world record holder in the half-marathon 5 years ago, failed to do in this multliple choice charge of "Evading, Refusing or Failing to Submit to Sample Collection".
I had already mentioned Balco ("sprinters taking designer steroids"), and NOP ("no NOP athletes were ever suspended or charged, let alone convicted or sanctioned"), and Russia ("that was real").
Cycling had much more than US Postal and Telekom.
Is cycling testing now as much and as aggressively as athletics, since they formed the AIU and ramped up testing, in the wake of the Russian/IAAF scandal? In a recent ARD documentary, they noted "The last positive doping test during the Tour de France was a decade ago in 2015, but the man added: "To believe that nothing illegal has been taken at the Tour de France since 2015 - that's a joke. I was close myself and noticed that doping continued.""