DHEA isn't grey area though. It's clearly banned by WADA and USADA. Just ask Tom Danielson. If you're tested at all, why take any sketchy supplements that are potentially tainted with DHEA or SARMs.
While not illegal is not allowed under certain governing body rules.
Weird distinction. SARMs aren't "illegal" to possess, but only because they're not approved for human consumption. Plenty of banned doping methods aren't illegal per se — like all the anti-aging methods — but they'll still get you a doping ban. Gray areas are methods allowed by doping agencies, but don't necessarily follow the spirit of anti-doping e.g. bicarb systems, ketone esters, TUEs, thyroid medication, etc.
i got into cycling as a way to escape life, with zero plan to ever compete, literally wasn't on my radar at all
but i loved it and wanted to be able to ride more, which by the way is in my opinion the #1 reason most non-professionals actually dope: they just love working out and want to be able to do it more often and with more intensity
i was using about 1.5-2.0mgs/kg/wk of test and the same of either deca or eq for roughly 1 year. eventually was convinced by fellow cyclists i met out on the road to compete. i gave it a go and won my first race by so much they didn't realize i had won until the lead moto notified the officials.
i stopped using after my first season as a cat5, naively concerned i'd get popped. first few months off sucked, of course, but lost about 6 pounds and by start of next season was even stronger w/kg than before. so i knew at that point test and other aas were truly not needed.
several years later as a cat1 having guest rode for some pro teams (D3, US based) and listened to their convos and the general chatter in the peloton it was clear the only thing that reeeally worked was epo. you'd be beating guys easily, then 4 weeks later they mop the floor with you. it didn't make sense to me until some vets explained how the sport works.
the offseason before i stopped racing, after having done tons of research, i took the plunge because i wanted to see if epo was really what everyone was saying or if it was hype
after doing 50iu/kg eod for 2 weeks and then 50iu/kg e4d for 4 weeks, i was transformed into an absolute god. my w/kg numbers were D1 level for sure (though my experience and ability to read a race was still like cat2 level), 11.5 w/kg for 1' and 6.2 w/kg for 20'
at that point i was like, i can't hide with those numbers. a pro team will absolutely pick me up and then what? i'm totally fkd because i would then have to rely on doping to sustain that and absolutely did not want to get caught. so i hung it up having seen reality. the boost, especially for someone like me that is naturally a 400-800 type relative to running, is just so absurd that it's hard to believe without experiencing it for yourself.
and i got it from papp's site. i'm literally on some list somewhere that thank god never got released.
most will not understand my choices and likely vilify me or say i'm morally bankrupt. fair enough, i don't take it personally. i'm just that type of person who has an insatiable appetite for knowledge. oh you say the stove top is hot, mom? i want to touch it and find out for myself.
trying epo prob saved me 3-4 more years of thinking i could make a living turning the cranks.
Fascinated, thank you for sharing. Glad to hear you elected to stop before turning pro and violating rules.
“1.5-2.0mgs/kg/wk of test and the same of either deca or eq for roughly 1 year.” Assuming you weighed about 65 - 70 kgs (I assume you would be pretty light as a cyclist) that would be roughly 100 - 150 kgs per week of test, and about the same of Deca Durabolin or Equipoise. While not an exorbitant amount compared to some, it’s at least three times what you would get from a doctor for TRT and more than enough to have deleterious side effects. You also didn’t mention cycling off during that year. You mentioned the first few months off “sucked.” What other side effects did you suffer while using? Thank you.
this may be difficult to grapple with for those that think PEDs destroy people's health either while on or once they go off
no side effects whatsoever while on, and yes for a year straight without going off. generally felt great (obviously test is mood enhancer), basically the opposite of "roid rage" as things actually tended to upset me emotionally dramatically less (i believe this is relatively normal when using massive doses), slept better, was more social, etc.
the first few months off "sucked" because i had trouble sleeping through the night without waking up several times. no libido, but was single and singularly focused on cycling everyday so could care less about that. was definitely a bit more emotional, but not like crying for no reason or anything like that, just noticed i was less resilient in general.
as for training in those few months that it took for my endogenous test to kick back in, given that it was during the off-season, it had very little effect. my ability to do very high intensity efforts deteriorated, but i expected that and didn't do much high intensity work in the off-season anyway. was mostly what people would consider Zone 1-3 training and that was unaffected so far as i could tell (used a powermeter extensively for many years, even before i got serious on the bike because i'm obsessed with numbers).
i would say the one glaring difference that i could remember was that on miserable days, meaning cold/wet/light-snow, i no longer had the drive to suffer for 4-5 hours. i'd hit 3 hours and be ready to call it a day.
my experience having used AAS was that it largely was not beneficial for an endurance athlete. i would say the exception to that, would be in stage races where i def believe it would be extremely helpful. but the longest stage races i did were 7 days, it's not like i was on a big Euro team or anything.
those comparing AAS to EPO, in my opinion, have no clue what they are talking about. it's not that they are purposely trying to muddy the waters either, it's just a lack of experience and research on their part.
personally, i think using corticoids (not all created equal of course) on race day is orders of magnitude more powerful than using AAS, though that opinion is based solely on research and talking to others in the peloton, not personal experience.
Fascinated, thank you for sharing. Glad to hear you elected to stop before turning pro and violating rules.
“1.5-2.0mgs/kg/wk of test and the same of either deca or eq for roughly 1 year.” Assuming you weighed about 65 - 70 kgs (I assume you would be pretty light as a cyclist) that would be roughly 100 - 150 kgs per week of test, and about the same of Deca Durabolin or Equipoise. While not an exorbitant amount compared to some, it’s at least three times what you would get from a doctor for TRT and more than enough to have deleterious side effects. You also didn’t mention cycling off during that year. You mentioned the first few months off “sucked.” What other side effects did you suffer while using? Thank you.
this may be difficult to grapple with for those that think PEDs destroy people's health either while on or once they go off
no side effects whatsoever while on, and yes for a year straight without going off. generally felt great (obviously test is mood enhancer), basically the opposite of "roid rage" as things actually tended to upset me emotionally dramatically less (i believe this is relatively normal when NOT using massive doses), slept better, was more social, etc.
Gray areas are methods allowed by doping agencies, but don't necessarily follow the spirit of anti-doping e.g. bicarb systems, ketone esters, TUEs, thyroid medication, etc.
Thyroid medication you don't really need is obvious cheating.
I used it for a chronic tendon injury. Took it for 3 months and it didn't seem to make a difference. I had it made by a Compouding Pharmacy so it was legit.
In the end, a disciplined and rigorous gym program worked best.
Can't you just put some store bought baking soda into cellulose caps for literal cents on the dollar?
I don't see why this wouldn't be way more effective than just chugging bicarb soda water, to the point that you may as well save yourself the proprietary up charge. Sorry Maurten
That's the question. Have any of you on here actually ventured into what we call the grey area, where what you are taking, injecting, supplementing, while not illegal is not allowed under certain governing body rules.
I'd love to find something that heals my bum knee.
Have you tried Hyaluronic acid injections? If your issue is osteoarthritis, it can work for many people. After good success with cortisone shots in both knees, the last one in my left knee didn’t do anything (this is not unusual). Not 100% relief with Hyalgan, but I did get significant pain reduction.
Fascinated, thank you for sharing. Glad to hear you elected to stop before turning pro and violating rules.
“1.5-2.0mgs/kg/wk of test and the same of either deca or eq for roughly 1 year.” Assuming you weighed about 65 - 70 kgs (I assume you would be pretty light as a cyclist) that would be roughly 100 - 150 kgs per week of test, and about the same of Deca Durabolin or Equipoise. While not an exorbitant amount compared to some, it’s at least three times what you would get from a doctor for TRT and more than enough to have deleterious side effects. You also didn’t mention cycling off during that year. You mentioned the first few months off “sucked.” What other side effects did you suffer while using? Thank you.
this may be difficult to grapple with for those that think PEDs destroy people's health either while on or once they go off
no side effects whatsoever while on, and yes for a year straight without going off. generally felt great (obviously test is mood enhancer), basically the opposite of "roid rage" as things actually tended to upset me emotionally dramatically less (i believe this is relatively normal when using massive doses), slept better, was more social, etc.
the first few months off "sucked" because i had trouble sleeping through the night without waking up several times. no libido, but was single and singularly focused on cycling everyday so could care less about that. was definitely a bit more emotional, but not like crying for no reason or anything like that, just noticed i was less resilient in general.
as for training in those few months that it took for my endogenous test to kick back in, given that it was during the off-season, it had very little effect. my ability to do very high intensity efforts deteriorated, but i expected that and didn't do much high intensity work in the off-season anyway. was mostly what people would consider Zone 1-3 training and that was unaffected so far as i could tell (used a powermeter extensively for many years, even before i got serious on the bike because i'm obsessed with numbers).
i would say the one glaring difference that i could remember was that on miserable days, meaning cold/wet/light-snow, i no longer had the drive to suffer for 4-5 hours. i'd hit 3 hours and be ready to call it a day.
my experience having used AAS was that it largely was not beneficial for an endurance athlete. i would say the exception to that, would be in stage races where i def believe it would be extremely helpful. but the longest stage races i did were 7 days, it's not like i was on a big Euro team or anything.
those comparing AAS to EPO, in my opinion, have no clue what they are talking about. it's not that they are purposely trying to muddy the waters either, it's just a lack of experience and research on their part.
personally, i think using corticoids (not all created equal of course) on race day is orders of magnitude more powerful than using AAS, though that opinion is based solely on research and talking to others in the peloton, not personal experience.
Thank you for that very interesting insight. It seems like your side effects were very minimal indeed. I definitely do not believe that steroids are inherently a health destroyer. It is dependent on dose, duration, and the genetics of the individual. A great example is Jay Cutler, four-time Mr Olympia. He took a lot of drugs to achieve his massive physique. Today he is in his 50s, looks fantastic, lifts weights, is on TRT, and says he has no long term health problems. Many of his fellow pros are dead or crippled. You just never know. Thanks again.
That's the question. Have any of you on here actually ventured into what we call the grey area, where what you are taking, injecting, supplementing, while not illegal is not allowed under certain governing body rules.
I'd love to find something that heals my bum knee.
At 65 I developed a 'bum knee'. Since I run marathons and I am prone to all kinds of body breakdowns and I keep close to my PCP, PT and orthopedic Dr. My PT recommended I see my orthopedic (speculating that it was osteoarthritis - more particularly breakdown of the Articular cartilage. The orthopedic I use happens to a local hospital's head of sports medicine. He suggested I go the PRP Injection route - which I did. PRP is Platelet Rich Plasma (Google it). For 6 weeks I wore a sophisticated knee brace (paid by my insurance) that allowed me to walk pain free, and even do some light running, while the PRP did it thing. That was 7 years ago and I still feel good as new. Check it out.
At 55 I started a weekly .5cc injection of Test Cyp. That was nearly 20 years ago and I haven't missed a week. I do not get sick, I do not take any medications, my BF hoovers around 8%, my sex life is great, I pump light weights 4 days a week and run 4 days a week. I do it purely for my own ability to do the things I like to do. No races, no competition, no money involved - purely for my own physical and mental capabilities and desires.
Why did you take them? Was it just to get Swole? Or was it to prepare for some sort of competition? Thank you for any explanation.
i got into cycling as a way to escape life, with zero plan to ever compete, literally wasn't on my radar at all
but i loved it and wanted to be able to ride more, which by the way is in my opinion the #1 reason most non-professionals actually dope: they just love working out and want to be able to do it more often and with more intensity
i was using about 1.5-2.0mgs/kg/wk of test and the same of either deca or eq for roughly 1 year. eventually was convinced by fellow cyclists i met out on the road to compete. i gave it a go and won my first race by so much they didn't realize i had won until the lead moto notified the officials.
i stopped using after my first season as a cat5, naively concerned i'd get popped. first few months off sucked, of course, but lost about 6 pounds and by start of next season was even stronger w/kg than before. so i knew at that point test and other aas were truly not needed.
several years later as a cat1 having guest rode for some pro teams (D3, US based) and listened to their convos and the general chatter in the peloton it was clear the only thing that reeeally worked was epo. you'd be beating guys easily, then 4 weeks later they mop the floor with you. it didn't make sense to me until some vets explained how the sport works.
the offseason before i stopped racing, after having done tons of research, i took the plunge because i wanted to see if epo was really what everyone was saying or if it was hype
after doing 50iu/kg eod for 2 weeks and then 50iu/kg e4d for 4 weeks, i was transformed into an absolute god. my w/kg numbers were D1 level for sure (though my experience and ability to read a race was still like cat2 level), 11.5 w/kg for 1' and 6.2 w/kg for 20'
at that point i was like, i can't hide with those numbers. a pro team will absolutely pick me up and then what? i'm totally fkd because i would then have to rely on doping to sustain that and absolutely did not want to get caught. so i hung it up having seen reality. the boost, especially for someone like me that is naturally a 400-800 type relative to running, is just so absurd that it's hard to believe without experiencing it for yourself.
and i got it from papp's site. i'm literally on some list somewhere that thank god never got released.
most will not understand my choices and likely vilify me or say i'm morally bankrupt. fair enough, i don't take it personally. i'm just that type of person who has an insatiable appetite for knowledge. oh you say the stove top is hot, mom? i want to touch it and find out for myself.
trying epo prob saved me 3-4 more years of thinking i could make a living turning the cranks.
One of the more fascinating posts I've read on this site.
I've always been curious how fast I could go on PEDs. Thought it would be a fun experiment to accomplish what I wanted to in the marathon, then roll into the next training block with an EPO regimen and see how much I could drop time. Document it and publish my results. This was before Icarus dropped and essentially did the same idea.
6.2 w/kg for 20' is insane. What were you at before EPO?
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