Walker had a kick. Ingebrigtsen doesn't. And you don't have a clue what a kick is.
Walker started having serious leg problems, calves and blood flow restriction somewhere in late 75, and in 76 his build up was compromised, none the less he came to the OG with 85%, but his money in the bank career aerobic work and natural speed carried him through.
Montreal 76 was the end of A game Walker, and he never again brought his top speed to the final lap, though he was able to maintain a upper B game for a decade plus more.
Bayi, who was capable of 330 solo, was hit with malaria time and again, and was similarly knocked out of action.
The Walker of 75, ran 349 virtually solo, with bad pacing of 55 plus 60 out the gate, and on a so so track. and a 2000m in 350 solo in wind and rain ...
In a perfect world, Walker Bayi Ovett Coe would have had epic battles for their first couple of years of prime track life.
Ovett and Coe, and Cram, and include Elliot, should have run 345 miles at that time.
On today's tracks with all the advantages and shoes, all these people can compete in the last OG...
Of all runners, only Coe was revolutionary, with his 45 400 capability combined with cross country prowess, and somehow never laid down the 326 1500 in his day.
the above isn't my speculation, or not much. it is from chats with arch jelley on several occasions
Arch was john walker's coach, here is a link to an interview at 101 years age... very sharp to be sure.
Exactly. My point. I don't agree that a 3:26.7 guy lacks 400/800m speed. He built those speed bases since he was 15-17. What he does is that he goes out very hard and pays the price ( lactate threshold does not mean anything, the timing of moves and pacing also matters) so he has no option but to accept the pressure.
You don’t agree but Jakob does. That’s he leads. He’s not leading by choice. He’s leading by necessity.
Jakob loses championships because of his stupid insistence on running “honorably” i.e. from the front, not because he can’t kick. Make a speedster like Cole lead at a fast pace for 1400m and he’ll get dropped the same way Jakob did in Paris. When you run that way, you make yourself the only one who doesn’t have a pacer. It’s a massive disadvantage.
Tactics are his problem, not training.
This is 100% correct. I would add that he's given his competitors a further gift in championship races of his predictability. I guarantee that all the top 1500m runners in the world right now looking forward to the final in Tokyo next year are training and preparing for following someone at 3:28 pace for 1400m and then kicking. There are too many guys capable of doing that and Jakob just doesn't have the fitness gap over them to run away from all of them.
The fact that it was THREE in Paris just means that they've got him figured out now. If he does the same thing again, it'll be the same result again.
By the way, if it's so 'honourable' to front-run the 1500m, why isn't it honourable to do the same in the 5000m?
Exactly. My point. I don't agree that a 3:26.7 guy lacks 400/800m speed. He built those speed bases since he was 15-17. What he does is that he goes out very hard and pays the price ( lactate threshold does not mean anything, the timing of moves and pacing also matters) so he has no option but to accept the pressure.
You don’t agree but Jakob does. That’s he leads. He’s not leading by choice. He’s leading by necessity.
Look at his 5k for how he would prefer to run.
If it were as you say, why would he risk so much by jogging through the rounds in big championships? He regularly goes straight to the back, lets a large gap form to the leaders, then blasts the final lap to finish at the front. How does someone with no kick close a 3:34.9 race in 25 while running wide around the final bend?
He leads because he likes to and because he’s a cocky SOB who wants to prove a point. Look at the 2023 diamond league 3k final. He was the speediest guy in the field by far but chose to front run the entire thing anyway. And he still won with a sub-26 last 200.
Jakob loses championships because of his stupid insistence on running “honorably” i.e. from the front, not because he can’t kick. Make a speedster like Cole lead at a fast pace for 1400m and he’ll get dropped the same way Jakob did in Paris. When you run that way, you make yourself the only one who doesn’t have a pacer. It’s a massive disadvantage.
Tactics are his problem, not training.
We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Jakob runs the right race tactically for his best chance to win, he just doesn’t have the ability against the current group of competitors.
You Ingy fans think he’s this super kicker that burns his own kick off by running stupidly.
If Jakob could kick like Centro or Hocker, he’d race like Centro or Hocker. Willing to run as slow as possible.
No, he does NOT usually run the right race tactically for his best chance to win. And no, he doesn't have to pretend to be a kicker... there are other ways to win. Yared (or maybe Ritz) was supposedly saying that if the pace was slow, Yared would push the pace. Yared is not a kicker either and wouldn't do well in a 3:35 race. So if Jakob didn't lead for 1400m, then Yared might have - it would've still been a sub 3:30 race, and Jakob would've fared better in the final 100m if he hadn't led the whole way.
Not saying he would've won. Actually, I don't think anyone was going to beat Hocker that day. But running from the front all but guaranteed him the loss. Letting Yared lead would have given him a better chance.
With Jakob's insane list of PRs from 1500 thru 5000m, hard to say he should change anything. Appears to be working. Could try tweaking the training very slightly.
Jakob loses championships because of his stupid insistence on running “honorably” i.e. from the front, not because he can’t kick. Make a speedster like Cole lead at a fast pace for 1400m and he’ll get dropped the same way Jakob did in Paris. When you run that way, you make yourself the only one who doesn’t have a pacer. It’s a massive disadvantage.
Tactics are his problem, not training.
This is 100% correct. I would add that he's given his competitors a further gift in championship races of his predictability. I guarantee that all the top 1500m runners in the world right now looking forward to the final in Tokyo next year are training and preparing for following someone at 3:28 pace for 1400m and then kicking. There are too many guys capable of doing that and Jakob just doesn't have the fitness gap over them to run away from all of them.
The fact that it was THREE in Paris just means that they've got him figured out now. If he does the same thing again, it'll be the same result again.
By the way, if it's so 'honourable' to front-run the 1500m, why isn't it honourable to do the same in the 5000m?
Jakob is generally coming right back from hard rounds in the 1500 when he races the 5k, while most of his opponents are rested or at least have had a week to recover from the 10k. But we know you (Armstronglivs under another moniker) are already aware of this.
He ran 1:44.9 in ‘74. By ‘76 he was no longer capable of that due to the calf problems he endured the rest of his career. His kick wasn’t really the same after ‘76 (when he won in Montreal over a fast closing Von Damme).
You don’t agree but Jakob does. That’s he leads. He’s not leading by choice. He’s leading by necessity.
Look at his 5k for how he would prefer to run.
If it were as you say, why would he risk so much by jogging through the rounds in big championships? He regularly goes straight to the back, lets a large gap form to the leaders, then blasts the final lap to finish at the front. How does someone with no kick close a 3:34.9 race in 25 while running wide around the final bend?
He leads because he likes to and because he’s a cocky SOB who wants to prove a point. Look at the 2023 diamond league 3k final. He was the speediest guy in the field by far but chose to front run the entire thing anyway. And he still won with a sub-26 last 200.
You only need to get top 6 in rounds. That’s different than needing to finish first.
The contrast in his rounds strategy vs his finals strategy should tell you he’s not confident (not should he be) in a slow final.
We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Jakob runs the right race tactically for his best chance to win, he just doesn’t have the ability against the current group of competitors.
You Ingy fans think he’s this super kicker that burns his own kick off by running stupidly.
If Jakob could kick like Centro or Hocker, he’d race like Centro or Hocker. Willing to run as slow as possible.
No, he does NOT usually run the right race tactically for his best chance to win. And no, he doesn't have to pretend to be a kicker... there are other ways to win. Yared (or maybe Ritz) was supposedly saying that if the pace was slow, Yared would push the pace. Yared is not a kicker either and wouldn't do well in a 3:35 race. So if Jakob didn't lead for 1400m, then Yared might have - it would've still been a sub 3:30 race, and Jakob would've fared better in the final 100m if he hadn't led the whole way.
Not saying he would've won. Actually, I don't think anyone was going to beat Hocker that day. But running from the front all but guaranteed him the loss. Letting Yared lead would have given him a better chance.
What Yared might’ve done was known in hindsight. The race could’ve easily gone out in 60s.
The only way Jakob ever wins again is if a guy like Stewy takes the lead and pushes from the gun at a fast pace allowing Jakob to tuck in.
What strategy would to suggest? Because all of his chief competitors are all happy to let the pace go slow.
Jakob loses championships because of his stupid insistence on running “honorably” i.e. from the front, not because he can’t kick. Make a speedster like Cole lead at a fast pace for 1400m and he’ll get dropped the same way Jakob did in Paris. When you run that way, you make yourself the only one who doesn’t have a pacer. It’s a massive disadvantage.
Tactics are his problem, not training.
His greatest weakness is his greatest strength. He (not unlike Coe- but Coe learned as he ages) was nothing more than a science project for his father. A robot following programs. So he doesn’t really have the ability to adjust or adapt to a race that doesn’t go exactly to plan. But in 4 years he will probably learn.
If it were as you say, why would he risk so much by jogging through the rounds in big championships? He regularly goes straight to the back, lets a large gap form to the leaders, then blasts the final lap to finish at the front. How does someone with no kick close a 3:34.9 race in 25 while running wide around the final bend?
He leads because he likes to and because he’s a cocky SOB who wants to prove a point. Look at the 2023 diamond league 3k final. He was the speediest guy in the field by far but chose to front run the entire thing anyway. And he still won with a sub-26 last 200.
You only need to get top 6 in rounds. That’s different than needing to finish first.
The contrast in his rounds strategy vs his finals strategy should tell you he’s not confident (not should he be) in a slow final.
You didn’t even respond to my examples of Jakob producing a good kick, just restated your opinion that he can’t with no justification beyond your own insistence. There is no point conversing with you if you aren’t going to be intellectually honest.
I ask this having no idea how much speed work he does or doesn’t do. However, I have 3 observations:
1) He seems to have a soft spot for the 1500 and runs it often. I think he wants to be known as the best 1500 runner ever.
2) He is a time trial machine, and imho far and away the best in the world in a rabbited 1500
3) He is almost always beaten in world championship 1500s due to his lack of kick. 2021 Olympics were an exception due to the hot pace set by someone else.
4) As far as I’m aware, he hasn’t run any races shorter than 1500 in the past 4 or 5 years.
Should he do a training cycle or two focused on 800 or even 400 training? I feel like his aerobic base is so huge that he wouldn’t lose much in a few months of 800 training. He could even break up the shorter distance training with a week or two of aerobic training to touch back on his strength if needed. I feel like if he became a 1:43-1:44 800 guy he’d be unbeatable over 1500.
If I was ingebritsen and wanted to add the last tool to my 1500 toolbox I’d definitely be thinking about something like this.
I dont think he needs to.His kick is plenty fine,and it got him an olympic 5000 meter gold medal.
Jakob hasn't seriously raced the 800 m in years. In prime shape (i.e: 3:26 1500, 3:43 mile, 4:43 2000, 7:17 3000), he can run 1:44-1:45 in my opinion without doing any 800m specific training, just by virtue of having supreme speed endurance in the 1500/mile/2000/3000.
No chance. Two seconds faster over 800m is a huge jump at that distance. You don't get it. He has enormous endurance but he lacks top end speed, even for a md athlete. 1:44x was Wottle. Ingebrigtsen is no Wottle.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Walker had a kick. Ingebrigtsen doesn't. And you don't have a clue what a kick is.
What are you talking about? Walker couldn’t outkick the Brits, or Steve Scott. He even decided to move up to the 5000m for the 1984 Olympics.
How is he any different than Ingebrigtsen?
Walker had shin-splints issues after Montreal and couldn't train more than half an hour a day. But from '74-'76 he was known for his strength and his kick. Look at how he outkicked top 800 runners like Van Damme and Wohlhuter, as well as Coughlin, in the final 300m at Montreal. Ingebrigtsen could never have done that off a relatively slow pace, as Walker did.
BTW, Walker could run 22.7 for 200m. I very much doubt Ingebrigtsen could do that.
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
Of course he did. No one ever has a justifiable reason for being better than the Norwegian god of running. I'm sure those who beat Ingebrigtsen also had a downhill course.
dude... you still going wrong like a weirdo on these boards Armstronglivs??? you seriously need to go to see a mental health therapist and get the f$%k off these boards... you have serious real issues irl
The only one experiencing issues appears to be you.
Of all runners, only Coe was revolutionary, with his 45 400 capability combined with cross country prowess, and somehow never laid down the 326 1500 in his day.
what's your evidence for coe having 45 400m capability? his relay splits? Coe ran 46.8 FAT which is great speed for a 800/1500 runner but a far cry from the 45 capability you claim.
Why do you feel a need to lie/exaggerate? 46 mid speed is still a great thing to mention.
45-mid in a relay (while tripping at the start) is pretty damn good for an 800/1500 runner. The 400 wasn't an event Coe trained for either. Neither El G, Lagat or Ingebrigtsen would have been able to get anywhere near that.
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