I understand your point but you are too literal. If a kid runs 3:59, I don't need to look at his XC times or his 800 times. I will take him.
handful of juniors ever run that fast - the point is valid and one I openly discuss with my recruits. Coach will always look up or down in distance from that 1600 to see if and where potential exists. Doesn’t have to be sub 1:50 but should be below 1:52 and 49 - or a 3200 sub 9
12.6 is the max. Nobody is describing NAU or BYU or Wisconsin or ISU or UNC as meatgrinder programs but they will all finish top 10 this year.
+1000 (to the second part, the 12.6 part is wrong under the new rules)
"Meat grinder" is only a criticism when applied to mid-major schools that don't get top-tier recruits. NAU has injury-prone mile specialists running 80+ miles per week, and they're not being criticized for it because they're turning 3:39-3:44 recruits into 3:33-3:36 guys. If you want to be good, you have to train hard. It's not like schools like UMBC are developing every recruit, and I would rather advise OP to go to a school that has actually broken 9:30 in the DMR than one that *might*.
For the record I actually know and like the UMBC coach and I think for an 800-focused athlete running around 1:54 in high school it's a program that makes a lot of sense. But OP is a higher-caliber talent than that, and as a miler in high school is far more likely to develop into a 1500/5k athlete than 800/1500. You can argue potential all you want but the fact is UMBC does not have a single elite miler on the roster and never really has, and that matters. Cornell and Princeton literally just ran 9:20 DMRs, why would it be important that UMBC *might* do it one day? Binghamton maybe has a little more argument because Annette has proven she can coach the right athlete to a true elite level, but given the continuous cuts to the program and frankly abysmal men's XC results, I would avoid at this point.
Ignore the comments recommending you to go to D3 or a crappy team like Colgate or Lehigh. Your times are more than good enough for an above-average D1 program and you'll get much better opportunities at these schools to compete at D1 meets and get first-hand experience training with sub-4:00 guys (which you probably have the potential to get to).
While I agree the athlete should aim as high as possible, I wouldn't advise against going to D3 until you have surpassed a D3 Nationals qualifying time (4:07 mile indoors, 3:47 1500m outdoors). Obviously, you can go D1 with those times but pick a school for the school they are, not just the division
Navy. Perfect program to develop him into sub 4 and a place at nationals
Your name says FormerMid. So then I am sure you understand that the commitment at the Naval Academy goes FAAAAAAR beyond an athletics program. OP would have to know what he is getting himself into with that.
12.6 is the max. Nobody is describing NAU or BYU or Wisconsin or ISU or UNC as meatgrinder programs but they will all finish top 10 this year.
+1000 (to the second part, the 12.6 part is wrong under the new rules)
"Meat grinder" is only a criticism when applied to mid-major schools that don't get top-tier recruits. NAU has injury-prone mile specialists running 80+ miles per week, and they're not being criticized for it because they're turning 3:39-3:44 recruits into 3:33-3:36 guys. If you want to be good, you have to train hard. It's not like schools like UMBC are developing every recruit, and I would rather advise OP to go to a school that has actually broken 9:30 in the DMR than one that *might*.
For the record I actually know and like the UMBC coach and I think for an 800-focused athlete running around 1:54 in high school it's a program that makes a lot of sense. But OP is a higher-caliber talent than that, and as a miler in high school is far more likely to develop into a 1500/5k athlete than 800/1500. You can argue potential all you want but the fact is UMBC does not have a single elite miler on the roster and never really has, and that matters. Cornell and Princeton literally just ran 9:20 DMRs, why would it be important that UMBC *might* do it one day? Binghamton maybe has a little more argument because Annette has proven she can coach the right athlete to a true elite level, but given the continuous cuts to the program and frankly abysmal men's XC results, I would avoid at this point.
My son filled out a questionnaire for UMBC about a year ago at the end of his sophomore year. His times were 400 - 54, 800 - 2:06, 1500 - 4:25. Never sent en email. This past summer his junior year he improved to
400 - 52, 800 - 1:59, 1500 - 4:14. And had been training predominantly as a 400/800. He is now going to train 800/1600 the whole year after XC, simply because thats where he belongs not because of UMBC. Divisions don’t matter to him.
The coach from UMBC emailed him recently saying the standards for a roster spot are 800 - 1:54, 1600 - under 4:20, 3200 - 9:35. says the way my son is progressing the times are attainable.
Now, my son is not banking on that at all but figured it couldn’t hurt to fill these things out and just keep updating. Still, I like that the coach responds just off the questionnaire. To me it shows he does his due diligence and at least is paying attention to those who may be late blooming. It may be a small thing but to me its little things like that which shows they leave no stone unturned. Many coaches don’t respond to emails much less the questionnaires. That program is going to keep going up. I don’t even think its all that much a risk.
Navy. Perfect program to develop him into sub 4 and a place at nationals
Your name says FormerMid. So then I am sure you understand that the commitment at the Naval Academy goes FAAAAAAR beyond an athletics program. OP would have to know what he is getting himself into with that.
If you need a miler, you should move an 800m runner up in distance. If a high school miler isn't willing or able to run a good 10k in XC, that miler is of extremely little value to even mid major teams in 2024.
This is called the Steve Magness Principle.
Lmao you think it's harder to convert a good miler to an XC guy than a 800 guy to a miler? Most of them have attitudes like Donovan Brazier and would rather run the 4x4 any day than move up, even if they have talent there.
If you need a miler, you should move an 800m runner up in distance. If a high school miler isn't willing or able to run a good 10k in XC, that miler is of extremely little value to even mid major teams in 2024.
This is called the Steve Magness Principle.
Lmao you think it's harder to convert a good miler to an XC guy than a 800 guy to a miler? Most of them have attitudes like Donovan Brazier and would rather run the 4x4 any day than move up, even if they have talent there.
you are totally missing the point guy - if a hs miler can’t add value on the cross country team, he will not be recruited to any T50 program. Easy peezy
+1000 (to the second part, the 12.6 part is wrong under the new rules)
"Meat grinder" is only a criticism when applied to mid-major schools that don't get top-tier recruits. NAU has injury-prone mile specialists running 80+ miles per week, and they're not being criticized for it because they're turning 3:39-3:44 recruits into 3:33-3:36 guys. If you want to be good, you have to train hard. It's not like schools like UMBC are developing every recruit, and I would rather advise OP to go to a school that has actually broken 9:30 in the DMR than one that *might*.
For the record I actually know and like the UMBC coach and I think for an 800-focused athlete running around 1:54 in high school it's a program that makes a lot of sense. But OP is a higher-caliber talent than that, and as a miler in high school is far more likely to develop into a 1500/5k athlete than 800/1500. You can argue potential all you want but the fact is UMBC does not have a single elite miler on the roster and never really has, and that matters. Cornell and Princeton literally just ran 9:20 DMRs, why would it be important that UMBC *might* do it one day? Binghamton maybe has a little more argument because Annette has proven she can coach the right athlete to a true elite level, but given the continuous cuts to the program and frankly abysmal men's XC results, I would avoid at this point.
My son filled out a questionnaire for UMBC about a year ago at the end of his sophomore year. His times were 400 - 54, 800 - 2:06, 1500 - 4:25. Never sent en email. This past summer his junior year he improved to
400 - 52, 800 - 1:59, 1500 - 4:14. And had been training predominantly as a 400/800. He is now going to train 800/1600 the whole year after XC, simply because thats where he belongs not because of UMBC. Divisions don’t matter to him.
The coach from UMBC emailed him recently saying the standards for a roster spot are 800 - 1:54, 1600 - under 4:20, 3200 - 9:35. says the way my son is progressing the times are attainable.
Now, my son is not banking on that at all but figured it couldn’t hurt to fill these things out and just keep updating. Still, I like that the coach responds just off the questionnaire. To me it shows he does his due diligence and at least is paying attention to those who may be late blooming. It may be a small thing but to me its little things like that which shows they leave no stone unturned. Many coaches don’t respond to emails much less the questionnaires. That program is going to keep going up. I don’t even think its all that much a risk.
"For the record I actually know and like the UMBC coach"
He's a good coach and a great guy, not denying that. But he will say himself his focus is on the 800 (he was an 800 runner himself) and his standards are designed to target the kind of runners that he wants. If OP was a 1:54 guy instead (or even 1:52-1:53) I would feel more positive about it, but for a miler who's likely to go up in distance in college, I would go to a program with a proven history of coaching fast milers. And given his talent level, he would be best served by having training partners in the 3:40-3:50 range. Ceteris paribus, it's easier to get to sub-4:00 if you aren't 10+ seconds ahead of your next teammate. That's a simple fact.
My son filled out a questionnaire for UMBC about a year ago at the end of his sophomore year. His times were 400 - 54, 800 - 2:06, 1500 - 4:25. Never sent en email. This past summer his junior year he improved to
400 - 52, 800 - 1:59, 1500 - 4:14. And had been training predominantly as a 400/800. He is now going to train 800/1600 the whole year after XC, simply because thats where he belongs not because of UMBC. Divisions don’t matter to him.
The coach from UMBC emailed him recently saying the standards for a roster spot are 800 - 1:54, 1600 - under 4:20, 3200 - 9:35. says the way my son is progressing the times are attainable.
Now, my son is not banking on that at all but figured it couldn’t hurt to fill these things out and just keep updating. Still, I like that the coach responds just off the questionnaire. To me it shows he does his due diligence and at least is paying attention to those who may be late blooming. It may be a small thing but to me its little things like that which shows they leave no stone unturned. Many coaches don’t respond to emails much less the questionnaires. That program is going to keep going up. I don’t even think its all that much a risk.
"For the record I actually know and like the UMBC coach"
He's a good coach and a great guy, not denying that. But he will say himself his focus is on the 800 (he was an 800 runner himself) and his standards are designed to target the kind of runners that he wants. If OP was a 1:54 guy instead (or even 1:52-1:53) I would feel more positive about it, but for a miler who's likely to go up in distance in college, I would go to a program with a proven history of coaching fast milers. And given his talent level, he would be best served by having training partners in the 3:40-3:50 range. Ceteris paribus, it's easier to get to sub-4:00 if you aren't 10+ seconds ahead of your next teammate. That's a simple fact.
I can chime in... worked on on the UMBC track for years.. one of the hidden gems outside of Baltimore. Great spot and great campus to hop on some of the best trails in all the Mid-Atlantic. Could knock out 16-22 mile runs regularly.
You are missing the big picture. 4:12 to 4:14 is NOT elite.
There were 157 juniors FASTER than 4:15 for the 1600 last year in the USA, not including mile or 1500 conversions. 200 junior boys under 4:16. And 76 junior boys under 4:12.
This doesn't factor in 800 runners or 3200 runners whose times convert to faster IAAF scores than a 4:12.
Schools are recruiting the entire world now, so there's probably 500 or more recruits under 4:12 in the world looking at colleges.
Thinking that 4:14 deserves to go to a power 5 school is just not based on reality in 2024. You are thinking like it's 2007.
By the way this boy is talking about hypothetical times, he hasn't run these times yet and probably never will.
You are missing the big picture. 4:12 to 4:14 is NOT elite.
There were 157 juniors FASTER than 4:15 for the 1600 last year in the USA, not including mile or 1500 conversions. 200 junior boys under 4:16. And 76 junior boys under 4:12.
This doesn't factor in 800 runners or 3200 runners whose times convert to faster IAAF scores than a 4:12.
Schools are recruiting the entire world now, so there's probably 500 or more recruits under 4:12 in the world looking at colleges.
Thinking that 4:14 deserves to go to a power 5 school is just not based on reality in 2024. You are thinking like it's 2007.
By the way this boy is talking about hypothetical times, he hasn't run these times yet and probably never will.
I think going to a Power 5 in the sport is overrated and not necessary. Especially if your first and foremost goal is to get an education. OP’s options are plentiful when you look at the sport beyond the high major schools. OP is in good shape. Is he going to have to do his due diligence? Yes, he is going to have to reach out to schools and it appears that is why he is here to get an idea and he was indeed provided some good options.
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