is it appropriate for an 18 minute runner striving to be 17? 19 striving to be 18?
What you're saying is real. but i think most teams have at least a guy or two who can handle 50 per week.
On the other end, lol@ the people here who just seem to think that every team has somebody where states or NXN is the goal race.
Many teams don't have a solid state candidate. Many more teams have a person who can hope and pray to make states, but that makes the state qualifier the goal race. Not states. For the most part, these kids are ending their season end of Oct. or very early Nov. Add in a 7-10 days of taper, and The season is winding down fast.
This is my team to the tee. One guy has hit 50M and he's a senior that has run at State every year of his HS. If my #2 & #3 runners have the race of their lives, they could possibly maybe qualify as individuals, I seriously doubt we will be able to make it as a team.
Our schedule last week
M- 6-8M progression run
Tue- easy mileage
Wed- 1M@5k pace 400 jog 2x8 @1600 400 jog 2x4 @1600 after the workout everyone was peppy and fine, nobody laying on the turf etc...
Th recovery run 5-6M
Fri 3M+ strides
Sat Race
Seems pretty tough training especially if you aren't too satisfied with your teams current racing.
1 mile at 5k
2 800s at mile
2 400s at mile
Then a race a few days later.
Ouch!
Good news is you've got several weeks left to recover. It can take 3-4 weeks of tapering to peak in your biggest race.
Your best effort is for championships, not workout champions.
They've already done the work.Now the recovery, nothing more than 3k effort, don't kill it, feel fresh.
if he has mediocre kids running 50 mi/wk that might be half his problem.
how good do you have to be to run 50 per week?
i only coached high school for 7 years, but in that time there was only one single individual that averaged 50mpw over the course of an entire year
she went to NXN as an individual her jr and sr year
of course it's a big difference hitting 50 for a few weeks or even months v. an entire year, but in my experiences even very dedicated kids struggle with that volume consistently
for reference, outside of that girl mentioned previously, had another girl that went to FL, two other boys that went to FL, a boy that went to NXN as an individual, and a team that went to NXN
none of them ever averaged 50mpw over the course of a year, though virtually all of them at some point had at least a few weeks where they hit 50+
There is something "off" with this year's team.. They all seem to be "people that show up to XC practice" but not "a team." We have a weird mix of personalities this year and I think that's what makes it seem so disjointed.
We didn't have a race last week so we got in a LR, I cut the V02M day and turned it into something shorter and peppier, turned the tempo intervals into a Progression Run. We'll see how it goes Saturday.
You, as the coach, are taking each race (and the early ones in particular) far too seriously. Presumably the last race (State?) of the season is what you are aiming for, and your program has been established with that in mind. Now you are blaming the kids and "culture"? If you had any kids doing NXN or Footlocker - that is as late as mid-December - then why are you even worrying about September?. You remind me of a local HS coach who basically goes from workout to workout, and focuses entirely on that (as if that is the answer) and not the bigger picture - which he doesn't see.
Your season is so many weeks long. If your kids haven't done a good base over the summer, then you cannot treat them as if they have - so you need to account for that in their training, and those that have need to be separated (even if only in your mind) as their plan needs to be different. A base (even a short one) needs to be in place. if your season was 3 months (Aug, Sept, Oct) or even 2 months (9 weeks), then that base of 3-4 weeks needed to get done, then 3-4 weeks of specific work, then 3-4 weeks of RP to taper. If that season was ideally June through November (so 6 months) then of course ALL the elements could have been developed slowly and properly. Then it comes down to the individual - the 800m kid is less likely to be able to handle the volume of the 3200m kid (for obvious reasons), so don't treat them as if they are the same, even if both run 3M/5k for XC. It can get somewhat complicated with different kids bringing different things to the table - a good coach can figure this out as they understand the bigger picture. A poor coach throws everyone into the same pot and assumes results will come from that - and doesn't understand it when either individuals or the team is struggling. You should have a google doc or excel sheet for every kid you coach, tracking the planned program vs the actual program, anything less than that is insufficient. Ideally you have an individual program for each kid, but that can be unwieldy and onerous but it can be done - I do it, even if for a few kids I wonder why I bother.
First paragraph is nonsense, but the second one is correct. Use some sort of periodization, and watch the team improve.
However, his goal is to see improvement from week to week to see how they are adapting to the training. Stagnant results can frustrate even the best of coaches.
look, my deal here is it sounds like someone with a set program who runs them a lot. talent might respond to it, if it fits the program. if he ever had a bad class or two it would probably just get run into the ground and be miserable. he's even saying one response to what's happening is just cook em hard a while.
generally my sense of stagnant, like best week was week 1, is they were overworked in the preseason. they peaked week 1. they aren't stars with a good idea how to get that back. you bossed their way into an early peak. you need to figure out how to get their legs back for your state progression meets, a second peak. if your idea out is run them hard some more, this season is probably toast.
side point but you could probably get away with this with more talented kids, but it would be in spite of yourself. they would tolerate better being run hard as they'd put in more miles by default and be used to and skilled at running faster.
personally, my XC experience was the 3rd best runner on our team magically becoming the guy who ran best when we tapered, faster than guys with D1 1600 times. the coach would take credit for the fast ones. the coach would take credit for the response of the 3rd guy. but in retrospect i thought he'd run 3rd guy's legs off, as well as mine and a few others. 1 and 2 were seen as the bigger talents and did more mileage but ironically he couldn't get them to advance. he could claim all 3 but in retrospect i took it as a clusterf*ck. 1 and 2 had set all the junior high records and to me he'd frittered something away. i digress but my point is something about taking credit for training plans in good years and then blaming the kids in bad ones, when if you had a genius plan there shouldn't be a bunch of those, eg, southlake carroll's 100s of kids turning into a 7 man monster every year, regardless what the names are. but they have a volume approach to recruiting that waters down the talent issue, and then their training produces pace metronomes in bulk who may not do it in college but can run 15 minutes in HS.
If they do not have track & field and at least 2 months of summer miles then they will not be good. Except of course the top talents. I do think that many coaches rely too much on speed work and what you wrote down does appear that way. A veteran coach once said to me, "Well, you know they are going to be breathing." The 5K is easy to train for, just run lots of miles.
If they do not have track & field and at least 2 months of summer miles then they will not be good. Except of course the top talents. I do think that many coaches rely too much on speed work and what you wrote down does appear that way. A veteran coach once said to me, "Well, you know they are going to be breathing." The 5K is easy to train for, just run lots of miles.
I agree with the first sentence. I adamantly agree with the second one, because I see it all the time, and it hurts the overall development of these kids. The rest of it I do not get at all. What are you trying to say there?
We raced this past Saturday and did "OK" the times were still very much the same, but the course is more difficult. I was pleased with their effort and they all seemed pleased as well. The better weather was a big factor in that.
The plan:
Mon mile Tue 2M warm up 1M @5k 800m jogging rest 4x300 @1600 /100m walking rest 1M c down Wed 4-5 easy miles Th 1M easy 2M@tempo 1M easy Fri off Sat 3-4M easy Sun 3M+ Strides Mon 3M+ strides Tue race.
If they do not have track & field and at least 2 months of summer miles then they will not be good. Except of course the top talents. I do think that many coaches rely too much on speed work and what you wrote down does appear that way. A veteran coach once said to me, "Well, you know they are going to be breathing." The 5K is easy to train for, just run lots of miles.
We started practice in June and the top guys got up to 50M. I'm not real comfortable asking a HS kid to put in much more than that. I posted that earlier.
We raced this past Saturday and did "OK" the times were still very much the same, but the course is more difficult. I was pleased with their effort and they all seemed pleased as well. The better weather was a big factor in that.
The plan:
Mon mile Tue 2M warm up 1M @5k 800m jogging rest 4x300 @1600 /100m walking rest 1M c down Wed 4-5 easy miles Th 1M easy 2M@tempo 1M easy Fri off Sat 3-4M easy Sun 3M+ Strides Mon 3M+ strides Tue race.
Seems a little too much for Monday. However, it is too late to change it.
If they do not have track & field and at least 2 months of summer miles then they will not be good. Except of course the top talents. I do think that many coaches rely too much on speed work and what you wrote down does appear that way. A veteran coach once said to me, "Well, you know they are going to be breathing." The 5K is easy to train for, just run lots of miles.
We started practice in June and the top guys got up to 50M. I'm not real comfortable asking a HS kid to put in much more than that. I posted that earlier.
I agree. Keep the mileage between 30 (for beginners) and 50 (for the top guys), and you will see results. If you have a guy who comes into HS already at 40-50 MPW, then they MIGHT be able to do well with 60-70MPW, but they will peak in HS, and flop in college.
everyone wants to dissect your brain, but somehow have forgotten that training is simply a stimulus that makes the body respond. I would question if these kids are fueling, getting enough sleep, etc. no kid is making progress on 3 hrs of sleep or stressed over personal life problems
This is probably it. For some kids, as they get older in HS, worries about college, girlfriends, work, tests, taking 5011 AP and IB courses, all that comes into play. It can be a lot for some. Talk to some of them on a personal level just as a teacher to student or counselor to student type of deal. You would be surprised at what they tell you if they trust you. Because it sure looks like you know what you are doing to me.
I agree. Keep the mileage between 30 (for beginners) and 50 (for the top guys), and you will see results. If you have a guy who comes into HS already at 40-50 MPW, then they MIGHT be able to do well with 60-70MPW, but they will peak in HS, and flop in college.
Jakob Ingebrigtsen has been training at 80+ mpw since age 13.
Lets see the training plan and we can decide if you know nothing.
Im not going to post every week but most weeks we are:
Mon-tempo intervals/hills (alternating weeks)
Tue- easy mileage
Wed V02M work
Th recovery miles
Fri pre-meet (jogging+strides)
Sat Race/Long Run
Sun rest day
Nothing ground breaking I know, but then this is low level HS running.
Lets see the training plan and we can decide if you know nothing. Im not going to post every week but most weeks we are: Mon-tempo intervals/hills (alternating weeks) Tue- easy mileage Wed V02M work Th recovery miles Fri pre-meet (jogging+strides) Sat Race/Long Run Sun rest day Nothing ground breaking I know, but then this is low level HS running.
Lets see the training plan and we can decide if you know nothing. Im not going to post every week but most weeks we are: Mon-tempo intervals/hills (alternating weeks) Tue- easy mileage Wed V02M work Th recovery miles Fri pre-meet (jogging+strides) Sat Race/Long Run Sun rest day Nothing ground breaking I know, but then this is low level HS running.
It sounds like you're in a tough spot with your team this season, and it's understandable to feel frustrated. Given that you have one month left, it might be worth trying a different approach. Switching to shorter, faster reps with a couple of hard workouts could inject some urgency and intensity into their training. This change might help break the stagnation and boost their confidence as they prepare for the remaining races. Just be sure to balance the hard days with adequate recovery, as overtraining could lead to burnout or injury. Monitoring their responses closely will be crucial. If they seem to respond positively, you might see some improvements before the season ends. Ultimately, you know your athletes best, so trust your instincts on what they need right now. Sometimes a shake-up is exactly what’s needed to find that spark!
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
I agree. Keep the mileage between 30 (for beginners) and 50 (for the top guys), and you will see results. If you have a guy who comes into HS already at 40-50 MPW, then they MIGHT be able to do well with 60-70MPW, but they will peak in HS, and flop in college.
Jakob Ingebrigtsen has been training at 80+ mpw since age 13.
Who is scared? Maybe the guy who posted using an absurd name instead of one he could be recognized by using?
We ended up performing well in our Regional meet. Left with a number of state qualifiers, and those kids finished higher than they were projected. All in all a very good day. Obviously I would have rather have had my entire team make it, but going in I knew the other teams were just way better than us.)
We ended up performing well in our Regional meet. Left with a number of state qualifiers, and those kids finished higher than they were projected. All in all a very good day. Obviously I would have rather have had my entire team make it, but going in I knew the other teams were just way better than us.)
It sounds like you got the improvement you were looking for. Congrats.
Speaking of which, one thing I'm a proponent of is a "longish" tempo of 3 or 4 miles instead of tempo intervals. That gives runners a chance to practice being uncomfortable (physically and mentally) for an extended period of time rather than knowing they have a break coming up.
There is no way this group could do a 3-4M tempo run. They have virtually zero sense of pace. All they would do is either race it, or drag through it way too slow, the broken tempos help them stay focused. Either way we wouldn't get the stimulus we want.
In the past I have done 4M tempos, but I had 4-6 guys that could hang in a pack and keep the pace appropriate.
I've heard this even from really good coaches but it is something they need to go through and learn. That they cannot do it now is part of the reason that their races are bad. You can make it happen by picking a loop course where you can check more on their pace. Best to have something rolling, but if necessary have them do it the first time on a track. Set their paces and hold them to it for 3-4 miles. I also wonder about the wisdom of having them take Sunday off, in addition to strides and nothing else on Fridays, instead of training through with easy miles pre- and post-race day or long run day.
There is no way this group could do a 3-4M tempo run. They have virtually zero sense of pace. All they would do is either race it, or drag through it way too slow, the broken tempos help them stay focused. Either way we wouldn't get the stimulus we want.
In the past I have done 4M tempos, but I had 4-6 guys that could hang in a pack and keep the pace appropriate.
I've heard this even from really good coaches but it is something they need to go through and learn. That they cannot do it now is part of the reason that their races are bad. You can make it happen by picking a loop course where you can check more on their pace. Best to have something rolling, but if necessary have them do it the first time on a track. Set their paces and hold them to it for 3-4 miles. I also wonder about the wisdom of having them take Sunday off, in addition to strides and nothing else on Fridays, instead of training through with easy miles pre- and post-race day or long run day.
*I prefer broken vs continuous tempos for a number of reasons. Ideally I would have a nice pack of guys knocking out a 4M tempo together, but we are not that kind of team. We have big gaps in ability and experience. Also the broken tempos let them get some water and recovery (we're in The South where it's smokin hot all XC season.) I am not going to let perfection be the enemy of the good.
*No way am I sending a HS kid into a race having worked out hard the day before. They only have so many races to perform, and the entire reason we do this is to race. I don't see the point of "training through" a race in HS. I'd rather just not run the race.
*The day off after the meet is as much for the families than the kids. These parents drive these kids all over the state all season. They need at least one day with no commitments. Obviously the athletes are free to run on their own if they chose.
Also I think having one day of no running at all is a good thing. I have almost always planned one day per week completely OFF.