Yea...Im more with you than the draconian "be here or you are off the team" approach. My kids team does that and I see that they are fearful all the time. Bad Ju Ju. This isnt football, there are no plays/chemistry to practice. l.
Maybe if I had 70 kids out for XC then I might be more inclined to tell kids to chose and commit to one or two activities, and if you can't make XC one of your top 3, then move on. But I do not have that.
I just dont see what you gain by kicking kids off your team. Maybe is makes you feel like a big man berating a teenager "teaching them a life lesson", but honestly XC practice is a "sunk cost". You are already there, the road/trail/track can certainly handle one more person, you as a coach are out nothing by allowing a kid to work things out.
There have been many teams who have won with less that 15 kids on the team. One athletic director who I did not like because he favored the football and basketball teams told me that "Quality is more important than quantity and that you are better off kicking someone off the team if they are not committed." I did not agree with him then, but looking back I know he was correct and although we had some success, there is no doubt in my mind that with his approach we would have started winning sooner and kept winning longer with his approach. There is a lot of pressure on XC coaches to get numbers when that does not matter at all in terms of success!
This is exactly why team and individual goal setting is important. Every season for me starts with a 2 mile time trial and then a goal setting session where we come up with team and individual goals for the season.
Then when you discuss the training plan, you are coming at it from the perspective of "your goal is X, and Y is the plan we need to follow to achieve X." "You want to beat your cross town rivals, so you need to be at practice M-F" or "You want to win a state championship, so hopefully you've already put in the base training over the summer and now you need to show up M-F for practice, and run on most non-meet weekend days" lands better than "show up every day because that's the rule." Essentially your framing it that showing up and working hard was their idea, not yours.
On an individual level, runners might have goals that are less ambitious. That's fine. Those goals can still be used to tailor a training plan and motivate the runner to follow it. And usually these kids will start to develop some more ambitious goals as they start to have some success.
I've heard of points systems (for attendance or other positive contributions to the team) that other teams use as a benefit system for special things like overnight trips. Although my team doesn't do an overnight trip, I've thought about it for next season and would LOVE to hear some ideas on these points systems. I like the idea of rewarding those runners who show the commitment to the team, not just focusing solely on the fastest runners who may not have the best work ethic.
I've heard of points systems (for attendance or other positive contributions to the team) that other teams use as a benefit system for special things like overnight trips. Although my team doesn't do an overnight trip, I've thought about it for next season and would LOVE to hear some ideas on these points systems. I like the idea of rewarding those runners who show the commitment to the team, not just focusing solely on the fastest runners who may not have the best work ethic.
I understand why people do these things, I just don't love getting wrapped up in doing everything based on attendance. I like to coach, not to score points for attendance. I take attendance every day and keep track of it. If someone has to miss then they have to communicate and it's unexcused. Being dismissed from the team takes a lot of misses for me, I don't get hardcore about it. I'm busy planning the training and the practices and talking about the meets. I know who has perfect attendance and we talk about it, I would rather focus most of the rewards on those who are improving rather than just those that show up. Just my 2 cents.
I understand why people do these things, I just don't love getting wrapped up in doing everything based on attendance. I like to coach, not to score points for attendance. I take attendance every day and keep track of it. If someone has to miss then they have to communicate and it's unexcused. Being dismissed from the team takes a lot of misses for me, I don't get hardcore about it. I'm busy planning the training and the practices and talking about the meets. I know who has perfect attendance and we talk about it, I would rather focus most of the rewards on those who are improving rather than just those that show up. Just my 2 cents.
That's where I've been as well - we do a lot of things that take up a fair amount of time, and adding some admin type of task would be a bit of a pain.
We tend to get good attendance when we're giving good feedback on how the girls are doing throughout the season. If they see progress, it gives them a bit more motivation to show up & work hard. I'm sure others do this as well but we take video at mile 1 & 2 (makes getting splits for a big team MUCH easier) to get splits and position for each runner for every race. If they improve position from 1 to the finish or from 2 to the finish, they get a little Skull bead they can put on their trainers. Kind of a nice motivator, and having the data to show them how much they slow down for each mile (or speed up), or how many people they passed, has really helped us teach them how to pace a little better. That does take a fair amount of time though, poring through videos after the race and putting all that into a spreadsheet (most races only have mats at the end). But - we can compare a runner's performance year over year and show them just how much progress they've made. Otherwise, I think a lot of them just lace them up, run and not put much thought into what they're doing, and MAYBE they get marginally better.
That's where I've been as well - we do a lot of things that take up a fair amount of time, and adding some admin type of task would be a bit of a pain.
We tend to get good attendance when we're giving good feedback on how the girls are doing throughout the season. If they see progress, it gives them a bit more motivation to show up & work hard. I'm sure others do this as well but we take video at mile 1 & 2 (makes getting splits for a big team MUCH easier) to get splits and position for each runner for every race. If they improve position from 1 to the finish or from 2 to the finish, they get a little Skull bead they can put on their trainers. Kind of a nice motivator, and having the data to show them how much they slow down for each mile (or speed up), or how many people they passed, has really helped us teach them how to pace a little better. That does take a fair amount of time though, poring through videos after the race and putting all that into a spreadsheet (most races only have mats at the end). But - we can compare a runner's performance year over year and show them just how much progress they've made. Otherwise, I think a lot of them just lace them up, run and not put much thought into what they're doing, and MAYBE they get marginally better.
That's great and a fun idea. I have some weekly reward things that I do for those that are showing up every day and working hard and improving or racing well or doing something for the team. But it's just one award per week. We use Strava and most of them do it in the races as well. So that gives me their splits for the most part. Allows me to check on those that look like they may have made some big pacing errors on race day.
It starts at the top. The AD and how he/she respects the sport.
The coach has to be there, first, every day and show the most enthusiasm. The kids aren’t dumb and can see through a coach that doesn’t want to be there or doesn’t really love the sport.
Where I am from in the small town south of where I coached, an AD who treated our sport as if it were study hall or the glee club, hired a lady who was wife of the golf coach.
She is there to pad the family income and when her cross country team had social media, even put golf stuff on it for her husband.
That is an AD problem. Just like in the military where the troops reflect the esprit of the leadership, the same holds true for high school cross country runners and their leadership.
The AD half asses a coaching hire, the kids will half ass their enthusiasm.
The best way to handle an AD is to talk to them frequently. That is a tough job and you want to avoid ever talking to him when you are angry. If I have a chance to do it again I will try to make small talk every day. Yes, you will find out what he does not want cross country to do, but at least you might find out ahead of time and he will not have to worry about you pulling a fast one on him. There are many coaches who do that, and I have done that unintentionally.
Unfortunately the previous coach before me left the cupboards pretty empty, but if I could do it over again I would work with the kids that show up and give them my best. I would worry about their success, whether they have a good experience. Fast kids recruit fast kids and numbers are not important.
I just took over a program that was left bare. I know how you feel.
I've seen it from both sides. I ran for large and storied programs where almost every runner was bought in and the top runners treated it as if it were life or death.
I also coached a brand new program at a small private school. It was incredibly difficult at the time getting everyone's buy in. Even my assistants (parent volunteers) weren't sure we could have a season due to poor turnout and morale. But at the end of the season we had an underclassman state medalist despite no one running over the summer.
I have a lot of thoughts on that year. One of the most significant is you have to completely believe in the team and the kids even if you feel like you're delusional. I found that if you're approachable and charismatic that the kids will listen...eventually. You also have to be patient and let them make friends with each other. I guess there's no guarantee that will happen, but you have to create an environment where that's possible by being the best coach you can be and relying on positive reinforcement.
I worked at several different schools during my career and in some cases the discipline among the staff administrators was extremely lacking! But even so you must think and talk positive and ultimately remind yourself that we are called to be servants. Admittedly I did not always do that!
Servant coaches end up with greater attendance, because the athletes are drawn to that sore of coach. The sport is not about the coach, or the parents. It is about the kids. Serve them, and you will get better results than in you make it about you.
Maybe if I had 70 kids out for XC then I might be more inclined to tell kids to chose and commit to one or two activities, and if you can't make XC one of your top 3, then move on. But I do not have that.
I just dont see what you gain by kicking kids off your team. Maybe is makes you feel like a big man berating a teenager "teaching them a life lesson", but honestly XC practice is a "sunk cost". You are already there, the road/trail/track can certainly handle one more person, you as a coach are out nothing by allowing a kid to work things out.
. There is a lot of pressure on XC coaches to get numbers when that does not matter at all in terms of success!
I disagree with this, and there is no need to overstate something to try to make a point. Unless you have a great feeder program you do need to have numbers. Sure there have been teams with only 7-10 runners that went on to do GREAT things, but those are the exception, not the rule.
You need numbers so you can sift through and cull off that top percentage. Think of this like a sales job, if you need 10 calls to make 1 sale, then 100 calls equal 10 sales. You need X number of participants to equal Y number of Varsity Level Athlete. Sure you CAN have only 5 guys come out and they are all 15 min 5k guys, but that would not be the norm.
I could tell in the first five minutes talking to the guys at the first summer work out who was buying in. Just the way they locked in when I looked around at them. Those are the kids I concentrated on no matter their times.
I bought a finish line clock and attended every middle school track and XC meet. I stood in third lane and I made sure each kid could see his time and I looked at the faces. Not place, not ability
My best find was a little kid who kept finishing last in his 800, he had hair down to his waist and he looked like Dave Wottle finishing last in a lean with a determined look on his face. I recruited him heavy. 5 or 6 years later, he was a low 16 HS runner who got a full ride to a Div 2 school. Sometimes, kids just don’t like you. I recruited a kid in middle school, sent him newsletters, got him to switch from swimming to XC. He later became a doctor and researcher. He was sub 16 but didn’t take much to my motivational attitude ha
Had it not been for the long haired kid and my best recruit who became a Div 2 All-American, he woulda quit. They talked him into staying with it.
We sure had no feeder system. It was hustling to get to middle school meets carrying a finish line clock, talking to all the teams and parents and successfully recruiting 4 or 5 year
I figured 1 out of 10, you’d get that “ locked in” look from when you had them in that circle talking to them.
So, obviously in my area you alwys had to hustle. They haven’t done that since I left. I pay attention.
This post was edited 9 minutes after it was posted.
I don't think recruiting middle schoolers is the way to do it. Talking to young kids at their meets and trying to get them to come to your school is pretty creepy. As a parent this would be a huge turnoff.
I don't think recruiting middle schoolers is the way to do it. Talking to young kids at their meets and trying to get them to come to your school is pretty creepy. As a parent this would be a huge turnoff.
The word "creepy" is way over used these days, and who are you to judge. Kids do have the option of going to another school without parents trailing along. Not many kids run from 7th graded to their senior year. But some do and can be incredibly successful. It is not quick way to win.
However, life is short why not let your kid get outside and enjoy the great outdoors?
I could tell in the first five minutes talking to the guys at the first summer work out who was buying in. Just the way they locked in when I looked around at them. Those are the kids I concentrated on no matter their times.
I bought a finish line clock and attended every middle school track and XC meet. I stood in third lane and I made sure each kid could see his time and I looked at the faces. Not place, not ability
My best find was a little kid who kept finishing last in his 800, he had hair down to his waist and he looked like Dave Wottle finishing last in a lean with a determined look on his face. I recruited him heavy. 5 or 6 years later, he was a low 16 HS runner who got a full ride to a Div 2 school. Sometimes, kids just don’t like you. I recruited a kid in middle school, sent him newsletters, got him to switch from swimming to XC. He later became a doctor and researcher. He was sub 16 but didn’t take much to my motivational attitude ha
Had it not been for the long haired kid and my best recruit who became a Div 2 All-American, he woulda quit. They talked him into staying with it.
We sure had no feeder system. It was hustling to get to middle school meets carrying a finish line clock, talking to all the teams and parents and successfully recruiting 4 or 5 year
I figured 1 out of 10, you’d get that “ locked in” look from when you had them in that circle talking to them.
So, obviously in my area you alwys had to hustle. They haven’t done that since I left. I pay attention.
I recruited heavily when I coached. But now I think I would have the kids do it as much as possible. I like the sound of your methods but doubt that anyone "can tell' the first day who is going to be good or not. Some kids need a few weeks to at least try it out and some need a few years be for they will get dedicated or quit. Give them that before you decide as a coach and you might find a stud or two more than you are now.
That is not what I said or what I meant. Why did you think that, I wish people were not so quick to judge people on a sentence or two. I admit when I started out in my 20s I was much more gung-ho than I am now in retirement. But I NEVER said winning was #1 and I wish you would tell me what you saw in my first two sentences that indicated that. Or maybe you are one of those people who would rather sitback and give a quick judgement?
. There is a lot of pressure on XC coaches to get numbers when that does not matter at all in terms of success!
I disagree with this, and there is no need to overstate something to try to make a point. Unless you have a great feeder program you do need to have numbers. Sure there have been teams with only 7-10 runners that went on to do GREAT things, but those are the exception, not the rule.
You need numbers so you can sift through and cull off that top percentage. Think of this like a sales job, if you need 10 calls to make 1 sale, then 100 calls equal 10 sales. You need X number of participants to equal Y number of Varsity Level Athlete. Sure you CAN have only 5 guys come out and they are all 15 min 5k guys, but that would not be the norm.
Yep, that is exactly what I did one summer as I sat on my couch and called over 1000 kids, and probably made even more than thousands of total phone calls. The fact is if you think it cannot be done, you are right and you lack faith in your own ability. Write back but I see a lot in you that was also my philosophy and NO ONE could talk me out of it. Too bad for you.
But are there any other incentives that a rookie coach could use to get kids to want to come to practice?
Do not get me wrong I appreciate EVERY single response and feel like I am learning.
What I meant by "Winning is #1 Of Course" is that if you have a winning program that will get more wins for you the quickest. In a lot of ways winning is also the easiest. That is what I meant but I am and you should also be looking for other ways.
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