You fans are actually fantasists. I've watched decades of great 1500 runners. Jakob has less of a kick than any of them. His weapon is his endurance.
But just as Joliet Jake was great with excuses, so is Jakob and his fanatical fans.
Why wouldn’t someone be a fan of one of the two greatest 1500/5000m runners of all-time? You don’t like sports?
Your constant posts about doping are tiresome, but you seem intelligent on some of the other threads. Your reference to a character in a movie I’ve never watched, is pure idiocy. Why do you have such disrespect for such an outstanding runner? Would you rather have a guy that that can’t break 3:30, but that has a personality you like, run in place of Ingebrigtsen?
All these negative comments about Jakob are bullsh*t, and if he wins the 1500m in Paris, he will be right, and every single one of you will be wrong.
The Blues Brothers was an iconic movie. Most adults of a certain age will have seen it. It is your loss. But the scene I refer to with Joliet Jake captures brilliantly how to make up excuses.
I have no problem with anyone being a fan but in Jakob's case many have allowed their partiality to completely obscure their judgement. He is a great runner - although nowhere near as great as he thinks, as Wightman and Kerr have shown - but he has a vulnerability in the shorter event, which is his relative lack of speed and kick against those who have more. He has nothing like the kick of the great 1500m runners of the past. His endurance is his biggest weapon.
I can separate my assessment of his considerable athletic talents from my views of him as a person, in which I see that he is a complete egotist.
This post was edited 52 seconds after it was posted.
You miss the point about what makes a great kick. It comes when all the runners are pushed to their limits at the finish and it doesn't matter whether it has been a fast run from the gun or fast over the last two laps. In the home straight everyone is flat out but the great kickers have another gear that their competition can't match. Coe at Moscow showed that. Jakob doesn't have that gear.
In 1980 Olympics (Moscow) the field had a 800m jog in 2.05 and then a fast last 700m, with a finish time 3.38. So does that have anything to do with what I have written in this thread..?
If one has a slow 1500m race, that turns the race into a 700 or 800m contest, of course the best 800m runner is likely to win, and have the fastest home straight. -If that happens in Paris it will be really strange if Wightman doesn’t beat Jakob…
But I’m talking about a 1500m run decently fast, or fast, or very fast -as far as I can see Jakob is the best kicker in those situations (if healthy) and peak form. That doesn’t of course rule out f.ex Kerr as an even better finisher -but then he has to find fitness that exceeds Jakob’s 2023 shape. So again -kicking in a fast 1500m is about overall fitness, not about 800m pb..!
Why wouldn’t someone be a fan of one of the two greatest 1500/5000m runners of all-time? You don’t like sports?
Your constant posts about doping are tiresome, but you seem intelligent on some of the other threads. Your reference to a character in a movie I’ve never watched, is pure idiocy. Why do you have such disrespect for such an outstanding runner? Would you rather have a guy that that can’t break 3:30, but that has a personality you like, run in place of Ingebrigtsen?
All these negative comments about Jakob are bullsh*t, and if he wins the 1500m in Paris, he will be right, and every single one of you will be wrong.
The Blues Brothers was an iconic movie. Most adults of a certain age will have seen it. It is your loss. But the scene I refer to with Joliet Jake captures brilliantly how to make up excuses.
I have no problem with anyone being a fan but in Jakob's case many have allowed their partiality to completely obscure their judgement. He is a great runner - although nowhere near as great as he thinks, as Wightman and Kerr have shown - but he has a vulnerability in the shorter event, which is his relative lack of speed and kick against those who have more. He has nothing like the kick of the great 1500m runners of the past. His endurance is his biggest weapon.
I can separate my assessment of his considerable athletic talents from my views of him as a person, in which I see that he is a complete egotist.
Good God! Your second paragraph couldn’t be more stupid. Have you seen the video of 2-mile WR? His strength towards the end of the race was jaw dropping and I don’t believe any other runner in history could have stayed with him. Everyone has a personality, and what you about Jakob, makes you sound like a HSer that doesn’t like a classmate.
I don’t give a sh*t about the Blues Brothers and have every right not to.
You miss the point about what makes a great kick. It comes when all the runners are pushed to their limits at the finish and it doesn't matter whether it has been a fast run from the gun or fast over the last two laps. In the home straight everyone is flat out but the great kickers have another gear that their competition can't match. Coe at Moscow showed that. Jakob doesn't have that gear.
In 1980 Olympics (Moscow) the field had a 800m jog in 2.05 and then a fast last 700m, with a finish time 3.38. So does that have anything to do with what I have written in this thread..?
If one has a slow 1500m race, that turns the race into a 700 or 800m contest, of course the best 800m runner is likely to win, and have the fastest home straight. -If that happens in Paris it will be really strange if Wightman doesn’t beat Jakob…
But I’m talking about a 1500m run decently fast, or fast, or very fast -as far as I can see Jakob is the best kicker in those situations (if healthy) and peak form. That doesn’t of course rule out f.ex Kerr as an even better finisher -but then he has to find fitness that exceeds Jakob’s 2023 shape. So again -kicking in a fast 1500m is about overall fitness, not about 800m pb..!
The point I was making - which you have missed - is that in a 1500 race, whether it was run hard from the bell or just the last two laps, all runners are at their aerobic limit by the home straight. But the great kickers can find an extra gear. It isn't about 800 ability - Rudisha could never have won the 1500 at Moscow - but the ability to shift a gear when pushed to the limit.
The Blues Brothers was an iconic movie. Most adults of a certain age will have seen it. It is your loss. But the scene I refer to with Joliet Jake captures brilliantly how to make up excuses.
I have no problem with anyone being a fan but in Jakob's case many have allowed their partiality to completely obscure their judgement. He is a great runner - although nowhere near as great as he thinks, as Wightman and Kerr have shown - but he has a vulnerability in the shorter event, which is his relative lack of speed and kick against those who have more. He has nothing like the kick of the great 1500m runners of the past. His endurance is his biggest weapon.
I can separate my assessment of his considerable athletic talents from my views of him as a person, in which I see that he is a complete egotist.
Good God! Your second paragraph couldn’t be more stupid. Have you seen the video of 2-mile WR? His strength towards the end of the race was jaw dropping and I don’t believe any other runner in history could have stayed with him. Everyone has a personality, and what you about Jakob, makes you sound like a HSer that doesn’t like a classmate.
I don’t give a sh*t about the Blues Brothers and have every right not to.
The limits on your cultural experience have been shown, but you also demonstrate with your argument about a 2-mile record that you have quite missed the point about how Jakob stacks up in an event less than half that distance. His "strength" over the 2 mile is undoubted, but that has nothing to do with his being able to produce a sprint finish to beat his competition, which is what he needs in order to ensure winning over the 1500 - and which is the Achilles heel amongst his considerable talents.
None of that has anything to do with his personality which, as quite a few posters here observe, is a big-head and not a very good sport.
The point I was making - which you have missed - is that in a 1500 race, whether it was run hard from the bell or just the last two laps, all runners are at their aerobic limit by the home straight. But the great kickers can find an extra gear. It isn't about 800 ability - Rudisha could never have won the 1500 at Moscow - but the ability to shift a gear when pushed to the limit.
Great kickers can’t kick when the pace is too fast -that’s why we say running the kick out of somebody..! Take extraordinary kickers like Beamish, Nordås and Kincaid -there’s no kick there if they go with the leaders. The same with Ovett -he lost in Moscow (1500m) because he hadn’t Coe’s 800m speed (in a strung out fast last 700m). It was nothing about shifting ability. Both Coe and Ovett and Cram had splendid shifting ability when being fresh, but none whatsoever when fatigued. Like everybody else. -Watch Coe’s loss against Bile, despite the former reported in good 200m shape…
I’m not saying that a 2.05 is only a warmup for every 800m runner (so yes, even such a slow pace would maybe taken it’s toll on an aerobically weak runner in the 1500m like Rudisha, but maybe not Wilson Kipketer), but for 1500m guys like Ovett and Coe 2.05 is so slow that the race is converted into a 800m. -Still quite aerobic like a 800m also is, but of course the 8/1500m guys would have an advantage over a 1500/5000m guy -also on the home straight, and also if the 800/1500m guy wasn’t known for his good kick. -He would have a fast home straight simply based on better average speed than a 1500/5000m guy… But not in a fast race..!
Yes, he knows that his kick sucks. This is not new info and he can’t do anything (or very little) about it. If he focuses all his energy on that, he will lose the strength aspect, which makes him win 95% of his races (except the WC) and he probably won’t win a kicker’s race anyway. So he’s stuck.
Leaves him to either cross his fingers that some idiot will take the race out hard so that he can tuck behind (5% chance) or hope that he improves his strength enough to win the race from the front (10% chance)
In a 5000m race however, he can kick very well, but lacks in strength. There, he needs to hope that the 3 Ethiopians will not start the race at 12:30 pace (which they never do) and also hope that he can improve his strength enough.
Good God! Your second paragraph couldn’t be more stupid. Have you seen the video of 2-mile WR? His strength towards the end of the race was jaw dropping and I don’t believe any other runner in history could have stayed with him. Everyone has a personality, and what you about Jakob, makes you sound like a HSer that doesn’t like a classmate.
I don’t give a sh*t about the Blues Brothers and have every right not to.
The limits on your cultural experience have been shown, but you also demonstrate with your argument about a 2-mile record that you have quite missed the point about how Jakob stacks up in an event less than half that distance. His "strength" over the 2 mile is undoubted, but that has nothing to do with his being able to produce a sprint finish to beat his competition, which is what he needs in order to ensure winning over the 1500 - and which is the Achilles heel amongst his considerable talents.
None of that has anything to do with his personality which, as quite a few posters here observe, is a big-head and not a very good sport.
Look, it’s obvious you have no personal experience in distance racing and shouldn’t be posting in threads about races or the people that run them. Your comment about strength having nothing to with a kick, is just flat out ignorant.
You should get the hell out of this thread and take your culture with you. Like I said before, I had liked some of your comments in other threads, but the sh*t you’ve posted in the recent ones about racing, has made me lose all respect for you as a poster. During my several years of posting on LR, I’ve probably bothered to block about 5 posters and you will be the 6th.
Interesting that Jakob immediately lashes out at the interviewer when he even gets a hint of a question that might vaguely be interpreted negatively. “Will you practice different racing styles” is a pretty tame question but clearly set him off and that mocking tone he used afterwards was childish.
Idk, I know you guys love Jakob’s confidence but to me he sometimes comes off as a spoiled rich kid who’s been told his whole life that he’s the greatest and attacks anyone who hints otherwise.
I love watching him race and generally root for him, but some of his interviews just make me cringe (which I know is an unpopular opinion around here).
He is not a spoiled rich kid. I think it was quite tight financially in the Ingebrigtsen home until they brothers (mainly Jakob) started to make money.
I don´t know if he has been told that he was the greatest but from a very early age he WAS the greatest first on the national level, then on the European level and now on the world level (from the 1500m to at least the 5000m)
I think he was told from early that he could be a top runner if he trained right. And he claimed early he wanted to be the best. It turned out that it was a realistic goal.
I know Jakob says he's still building fitness but I think that it's going overlooked how tricky it is to come up for a race plan for Jakob after that Pre mile. Like really, if you were his coach and you're mapping out his Paris 1500, how would you design it?
Does he take the lead at 500m and try to solo the rest of the race like he did in Budapest? That won't work unless he can solo a 3:26. Kerr and Wightman have better foot speed, so he can't leave it any slower than 3:30, and he can't risk a tactical first two laps because then it's anybody's race.
In contrast, Kerr's plan is really simple. It's why I think he's the favorite, and why that Pre mile was such a win psychologically
Non sense!
He has to run 3:26 to beat Wightman?! So you expect the 29/30 years old will be 3:27 (or 3:26?) in Paris (an improvement of PB with more than 2 sec and SB with almost 4 sec after already having improved his season opener in the mile with 4 seconds.
I suppose you in the same time like trollminator and other negativists "completely unbiased" assesses that Jakob´s room for improvement is limited. If Jakob got the improvements which you generously give Wightman he would destroy the WR in the 1500m.
So Jakob didn’t pass Cheruiyot with a kick 120 meters before the finish line in Tokyo Olympics..?
I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.
Timothy ran slightly faster in the Tokyo 2021 final than in Doha 2019; 3:19.01 to 3:29.26 and with a much slower start in Tokyo. SO TRY AGAIN ARMSTRONG!
I don´t doubt you will find another way to denigrate Jakob´s finish.
Have you ever commented on Jakob´s foodspeed in DL Oslo and Lausanne 2023 where Jakob shifted gear and ran away from the best milers in the world, including Kerr.
I think I have asked you and other negativists before and I don´t remember to have seen an answer? The negativists don´t like to see their biased claims confronted with facts.
Timothy ran slightly faster in the Tokyo 2021 final than in Doha 2019; 3:19.01 to 3:29.26 and with a much slower start in Tokyo. SO TRY AGAIN ARMSTRONG!
I don´t doubt you will find another way to denigrate Jakob´s finish.
Have you ever commented on Jakob´s foodspeed in DL Oslo and Lausanne 2023 where Jakob shifted gear and ran away from the best milers in the world, including Kerr.
I think I have asked you and other negativists before and I don´t remember to have seen an answer? The negativists don´t like to see their biased claims confronted with facts.
There are a couple things to consider. First of all, this idea that Jakob needs a race to be lightning fast is unproven and I would guess is wrong. Certainly he's won DL races of all speeds — 3:27.1 to 3:32 in Rabat and heats/semis in the 3:32-3:35 range. The truth is a 3:27-3:32 race isn't fundamentally that different (as far as the outcome) as in the best guy is going to win UNLESS they do a lot more work or run poorly tactically. Jakob's gamble in these finals is he is saying I will do a lot more work because I am that much better than the field. When a race is rabbited for 900-1000m, you don't have to be that much better. Tim showed it from 2017 to 2020. Jakob showed it in 2022 and 2023. In 2022, he was the best in the World but his gap wasn't sufficient to overcome a weaker tactical race from himself and a perfect race from Wightman. In 2023, he was sick but it's also unclear if Kerr at his peak was that much behind him. That question is even more unclear now. Where Jakob clearly might have footspeed/kick concerns is in a slooow Rio 2016 type race. But he honestly has nothing to worry about as far as that happening again. It was Tim and the Kenyans who wiped these races from existence, not Jakob. He is sometimes falsely getting credit for them changing how these races are run and frontrunners gladly taking it out. Now, there are a few guys (Kipsang, Jakob, Tim, Nuguse, Reynold, Stewy) in every final who would at least take it out in 57-58, if not try to go wire-to-wire (though maybe with an inconsistent pace). So I think now there is finally a moment where Jakob has to consider if his stubborn leading tactic is truly his best path to win. There is a large difference between Centro's race (2016) and what he did it Tokyo (2021). I don't know why he can't wait until the last 400, 600 or 800 as the race dictates to run as fast as he possibly can and definitively beat Kerr. Going at 1100 to go no matter what is a recipe for disaster.
Good God! Your second paragraph couldn’t be more stupid. Have you seen the video of 2-mile WR? His strength towards the end of the race was jaw dropping and I don’t believe any other runner in history could have stayed with him. Everyone has a personality, and what you about Jakob, makes you sound like a HSer that doesn’t like a classmate.
I don’t give a sh*t about the Blues Brothers and have every right not to.
The limits on your cultural experience have been shown, but you also demonstrate with your argument about a 2-mile record that you have quite missed the point about how Jakob stacks up in an event less than half that distance. His "strength" over the 2 mile is undoubted, but that has nothing to do with his being able to produce a sprint finish to beat his competition, which is what he needs in order to ensure winning over the 1500 - and which is the Achilles heel amongst his considerable talents.
None of that has anything to do with his personality which, as quite a few posters here observe, is a big-head and not a very good sport.
As far as I remember you very much doubted Jakob´s strenghts over the 2 miles BEFORE the race in Paris. Didn´t you agree with another poster that Jakob possibly would run 8:03 to 8:05?
I think Cheruiyot was slowing, as he was running out of gas (unlike his exceptional effort in the earlier WC). Jakob had more in the tank at the end but it wasn't a kick like the examples I described above, which showed sudden and spectacular acceleration. That kind of finish isn't part of Jakob's toolkit.
Timothy ran slightly faster in the Tokyo 2021 final than in Doha 2019; 3:19.01 to 3:29.26 and with a much slower start in Tokyo. SO TRY AGAIN ARMSTRONG!
I don´t doubt you will find another way to denigrate Jakob´s finish.
Have you ever commented on Jakob´s foodspeed in DL Oslo and Lausanne 2023 where Jakob shifted gear and ran away from the best milers in the world, including Kerr.
I think I have asked you and other negativists before and I don´t remember to have seen an answer? The negativists don´t like to see their biased claims confronted with facts.
I don’t get why Jakob doesn’t just do what he did in his Tokyo race, make somebody else do the work and then kick, same playbook that Wightman and Kerr used
I don’t get why Jakob doesn’t just do what he did in his Tokyo race, make somebody else do the work and then kick, same playbook that Wightman and Kerr used
Exactly. Once the person slows down, then he can get to the front.
Timothy ran slightly faster in the Tokyo 2021 final than in Doha 2019; 3:19.01 to 3:29.26 and with a much slower start in Tokyo. SO TRY AGAIN ARMSTRONG!
I don´t doubt you will find another way to denigrate Jakob´s finish.
Have you ever commented on Jakob´s foodspeed in DL Oslo and Lausanne 2023 where Jakob shifted gear and ran away from the best milers in the world, including Kerr.
I think I have asked you and other negativists before and I don´t remember to have seen an answer? The negativists don´t like to see their biased claims confronted with facts.
There are a couple things to consider. First of all, this idea that Jakob needs a race to be lightning fast is unproven and I would guess is wrong. Certainly he's won DL races of all speeds — 3:27.1 to 3:32 in Rabat and heats/semis in the 3:32-3:35 range. The truth is a 3:27-3:32 race isn't fundamentally that different (as far as the outcome) as in the best guy is going to win UNLESS they do a lot more work or run poorly tactically. Jakob's gamble in these finals is he is saying I will do a lot more work because I am that much better than the field. When a race is rabbited for 900-1000m, you don't have to be that much better. Tim showed it from 2017 to 2020. Jakob showed it in 2022 and 2023. In 2022, he was the best in the World but his gap wasn't sufficient to overcome a weaker tactical race from himself and a perfect race from Wightman. In 2023, he was sick but it's also unclear if Kerr at his peak was that much behind him. That question is even more unclear now. Where Jakob clearly might have footspeed/kick concerns is in a slooow Rio 2016 type race. But he honestly has nothing to worry about as far as that happening again. It was Tim and the Kenyans who wiped these races from existence, not Jakob. He is sometimes falsely getting credit for them changing how these races are run and frontrunners gladly taking it out. Now, there are a few guys (Kipsang, Jakob, Tim, Nuguse, Reynold, Stewy) in every final who would at least take it out in 57-58, if not try to go wire-to-wire (though maybe with an inconsistent pace). So I think now there is finally a moment where Jakob has to consider if his stubborn leading tactic is truly his best path to win. There is a large difference between Centro's race (2016) and what he did it Tokyo (2021). I don't know why he can't wait until the last 400, 600 or 800 as the race dictates to run as fast as he possibly can and definitively beat Kerr. Going at 1100 to go no matter what is a recipe for disaster.
TL I hope you know that I more or less agree with everything you write here. I also think Jakob should wait a bit before he starts front running. Perhaps even wait to the last lap since his kick is greatly underrated.
A small correction. I don´t think Nuguse will push the pace.
And a sad prediction re one your favorites: I doubt Kipsang will qualify for Paris (assuming that Brian Komen is eligible; sufficient doping tests).
And I doubt McSweyn will qualify for the final in Paris (if he manages to qualify for the Australian team).
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By the way: I saw on another thread that you theorized that Jakob had problems in the last 50m in rounds because he was looking around all the time.
I am certain that is a mistake. He is looking around because he is not all in and just want to make sure he gets the Q as "cheap" as possible. The English commentator is spot on when he says " Jakob ...barely out of third gear I suggest" after the Tokyo semifinal.
If you want to see his finishing power - also over the last 50m - watch the DL Oslo and Lausanne 2023 OR the Budapest semifinal. The haters never wants to comment on these races. I KNOW YOU HAVE A MUCH MORE NUANCED VIEW ON JAKOB´S FINISHING ABILITY.