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huwang wrote:
vettoo wrote:
Doping or not doping, when a guy like Komen can run 3:33.84 soon after he started to train at age 24, for me this clearly shows there are big structural differences between him and "western" runners (might be a combination of altitude, genetics, lifestyle, nutrition and so on). A white European who starts at his age to train will just not have such results.
I wonder what the reason could possibly be, hmmm...Use your brain, moran.
I have.
What or who is moran?
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Coevett wrote:
He is almost 26, but World Athletics only lists his races from last year.
Until yesterday his pb was 3:33.89 in his 3rd listed race.
Did he come into athletics very late?
Presumably he wasn't tested at all last year. Will he have the required 3 tests in time to be able to compete in Paris if he makes the team? I think the deadline passed last week.
It would be ironic if he was related to Daniel Komen. Maybe he is. It would explain his talent
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Coevett wrote:
If Kenyans are truly so naturally talented that this guy can get down to 3:33 (possibly sub 3:30 if he had had a few DL races) with just 12 months training
He ran 3:33.8, but you are now giving him sub-3:30 to prove God knows what point. Then you’re talking about annihilating the World Record. An athlete is naturally going to progress fastest at the early end of serious training/opportunity. I’m sure you know this. If a random British footballer with great talent ran 1:49 and you got him down to 1:45 by the of the year, you would not say oh he is going to be a 1:39 guy for sure.
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Laughing Out Really Loud wrote:
Factually incorrect and fundamentally wrong. You have a long established history of making these excuses here, regardless of who made them first.
You also have a long established history of making excuses even for banned intentional dopers, f ex Kiprop and Houlihan.
I can't "make" the excuses if someone else made them first. You are simply shooting the messenger. This is a predictable defense mechanism among those who are reluctant to challenge their own beliefs.
I seek to be fully informed, rather than jumping to conclusions based on presumptions and half the facts. A product of that is my sharing information that is publicly available, but often neglected.
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THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
He ran 3:33.8, but you are now giving him sub-3:30 to prove God knows what point. Then you’re talking about annihilating the World Record. An athlete is naturally going to progress fastest at the early end of serious training/opportunity. I’m sure you know this. If a random British footballer with great talent ran 1:49 and you got him down to 1:45 by the of the year, you would not say oh he is going to be a 1:39 guy for sure.
Aren't you the guy who made excuses for the most obvious doper in history, saying he could have ran 3 seconds faster -in the right races' before his breakthrough?
In fact you're always doing it with Africans. You claimed there were 'dozens' of Kenyans who would have ran as fast as George Mills last year given the chance.
But Komen's limit was 3:33 last year, despite no DL races.
The 'point' remains that getting to 3;33 off 12 months lifetime training is insane to the point of complete absurdity.
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Coevett wrote:
Aren't you the guy who made excuses for the most obvious doper in history, saying he could have ran 3 seconds faster -in the right races' before his breakthrough?
In fact you're always doing it with Africans. You claimed there were 'dozens' of Kenyans who would have ran as fast as George Mills last year given the chance.
But Komen's limit was 3:33 last year, despite no DL races.
The 'point' remains that getting to 3;33 off 12 months lifetime training is insane to the point of complete absurdity.
I think if you are referring to Katir, all I did was frame that the guy was a decent runner (3:36/7:44) in 2020 who had breakthrough #1 turning into a good runner in early 2021 (7:35i), and then there was another huge and much more relevant breakthrough between indoors and outdoors. He had two breakthroughs, so I don't know if you took exception to me saying he probably should've run faster in the winter of 2021 (if you look at how the races went, its pretty easy to discern why his times were slow). Either way, I always said with him let's wait to see if he gets caught by anti-doping. Lo and behold he did, but you predicted he'd be failing tests/falling off the earth immediately, which was also false. I've treated Nordas the same way as Katir, and I would treat any African runner this way too. Frankly, Nordas is more suspicious than Komen having trained the same way for years under the same coach and suddenly becoming what he is. That being said, he gets the benefit of the doubt, which is something you inconsistently administer.
When have I every claimed that about dozens of Africans reaching a 3:30 level? I think what I've said is that there are many 3:33-4 capable Kenyans who run 3:36-3:38 in Kenya at 5,000+ feet altitude. They could hit faster times running in Europe with pacemaking and sea-level conditions. It happened with Keter, Munguti, Komen, Kipkoech, and Etiang last year. If you can find the Kenyan athletes who made it to Europe and didn't run 2-5 seconds faster as a counterpoint — good luck.
As far as Komen goes, he ran 3:33.8 in his race there. Was it his absolute, maximal race? I'm not sure, but it was a small field and the top 5 either PB'ed and ran SBs. The pacing wasn't bad — 56.4/58.1/58.2/41. Komen didn't have to lead. The idea he was going 3 seconds faster, come on. Maybe he could marginally get to a lower 3:33. You seem to have a sense of his "lifetime training" that you've built up in his mind. How do you know the guy's history before 2023? The truth is you don't. From Renato has told us, he was not a serious athlete, but that doesn't mean he was sedentary.This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.21 -
3:35.59 in Nairobi at altitude April 29, 2023 is both over a year ago and equivalent to 3:32 even for an altitude-born and trained athlete.
The reason you get guys like this appear seemingly out of nowhere from Kenya is that there are enormous groups of guys training with or just on the outside of the training groups there, doing nothing but running, eating, and sleeping for the opportunity. They have to be really good just to get into any of the European races.
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Coevett wrote:
From Nowhere wrote:
Some people are terrific responders to drugs. Ask Gen, Bekele, El G…
The most likely explanation. If Kenyans are truly so naturally talented that this guy can get down to 3:33 (possibly sub 3:30 if he had had a few DL races) with just 12 months training, then, no Kenyan would need drugs, and the favorites for Olympic gold would certainly not be a Norwegian and a Scotsman.
What Komen has apparently done is greater even than Kiptum. You would expect him to go well under 3;30 this year, and absolutely annihilate the WR in the next couple of years.
Unless of course, 12 months of full throttle EPO enables you to achieve what would normally require years of training, and now he is in the testing pool, he will have to microdose or pop.
CoeEvett answering himself (funy).
Answer from Google
(First time when EPO was used USA (1998))
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You should really bring solide argument of EPO being used in Africa before 1998.
Morceli run 3:27:34 in 1995 without pacers should have been really technologically advanced.
In a time where none was talking about EPO.
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zxcvxzcv wrote:
3:35.59 in Nairobi at altitude April 29, 2023 is both over a year ago and equivalent to 3:32 even for an altitude-born and trained athlete.
The reason you get guys like this appear seemingly out of nowhere from Kenya is that there are enormous groups of guys training with or just on the outside of the training groups there, doing nothing but running, eating, and sleeping for the opportunity. They have to be really good just to get into any of the European races.
I told him days ago. He ignores facts.
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Coevett wrote:
The 'point' remains that getting to 3;33 off 12 months lifetime training is insane to the point of complete absurdity.
What do you know about his living conditions before he started serious training?
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Also there is a thing in sport.
When someone use Drugs he has at least some enemies that spread rumors about him.
Lance Armstrong when he started wining the Tour de France end 1998 and during 1999. There was a lot of bad articles about him using drugs with his team.During the 1998 Vuelta a España Armstrong shocked the cycling world by finishing in the top 5 during one ITT (27 September 1998), the top 10 in another and for the most part staying with the GC contenders in the mountains en route to finishing 4th overall.
Bassons wrote a number of articles for a French newspaper during the 1999 Tour de France which made references to doping in the peloton. Subsequently, Armstrong had an altercation with Bassons during the 1999 Tour de France where Bassons said Armstrong rode up alongside on the Alpe d'Huez stage to tell him "it was a mistake to speak out the way I (Bassons) do and he (Armstrong) asked why I was doing it. I told him that I'm thinking of the next generation of riders. Then he said 'Why don't you leave, then?'"[75][76]
Armstrong confirmed the story. On the main evening news on TF1, a national television station, Armstrong said: "His accusations aren't good for cycling, for his team, for me, for anybody. If he thinks cycling works like that, he's wrong and he would be better off going home".There is no such thing for Morceli, Haile Gebreselassi, Komen or El G. ... none of their milieu talked about them using drugs.
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Coevett The Mad wrote:
Also there is a thing in sport.
When someone use Drugs he has at least some enemies that spread rumors about him.
Lance Armstrong when he started wining the Tour de France end 1998 and during 1999. There was a lot of bad articles about him using drugs with his team.During the 1998 Vuelta a España Armstrong shocked the cycling world by finishing in the top 5 during one ITT (27 September 1998), the top 10 in another and for the most part staying with the GC contenders in the mountains en route to finishing 4th overall.
Bassons wrote a number of articles for a French newspaper during the 1999 Tour de France which made references to doping in the peloton. Subsequently, Armstrong had an altercation with Bassons during the 1999 Tour de France where Bassons said Armstrong rode up alongside on the Alpe d'Huez stage to tell him "it was a mistake to speak out the way I (Bassons) do and he (Armstrong) asked why I was doing it. I told him that I'm thinking of the next generation of riders. Then he said 'Why don't you leave, then?'"[75][76]
Armstrong confirmed the story. On the main evening news on TF1, a national television station, Armstrong said: "His accusations aren't good for cycling, for his team, for me, for anybody. If he thinks cycling works like that, he's wrong and he would be better off going home".There is no such thing for Morceli, Haile Gebreselassi, Komen or El G. ... none of their milieu talked about them using drugs.
Seriously? What a strange point to make.
Who of Kiprop's, Cherono's, Gay's or Houlihan's milieu talked about them using drugs?
And El G actually had doped training and pacing buddies.
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Laughing Out Really Loud wrote:
Coevett The Mad wrote:
Who of Kiprop's,
Kiprop made a infringement violation of rule of doping.
In a time when he was in full regression.
Stop à la ligne.
He kept all his previous results clean and safe.
You can whinn to your mother for the performances of your countrymans.
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Komen is unsurprisingly enthusiastic after this win:
“It was my first time in a Diamond League and winning in Doha despite the sultry conditions attested to the reality that my body is adapting fast for major competitions,” Komen stated.
“I strongly feel I’m now ready to make the nation proud at the Paris 2024 Olympics. I’m prepared for the contest that lies ahead. Bring it on!”
“The 1500m race is one of the fiercest competitive events and it would be suicidal for my career if I chose to rest on my laurels. The nature of the competition requires one to be constantly vigilant while looking out for emerging competition,” Komen remarked.
“Kenya brims with immense talent and I have a lot of respect for Abel and Timothy who have both achieved quite a lot before me. I owe them a lot and I believe they have some lessons to offer,” he added.21 -
Canova has said twice that he only started training 12 months before he started racing last year.
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Coevett The Mad wrote:
You should really bring solide argument of EPO being used in Africa before 1998.
Morceli run 3:27:34 in 1995 without pacers should have been really technologically advanced.
In a time where none was talking about EPO.
We've had this discussion countless times here before.
Most people here understand that Cacho was using EPO at Barcelona. His coach practically admitted it last year.
EPO was being used in other sports (and cyclists were dropping dead) in the late 80's. Spain had a state-sponsered doping program going on by the 80's. It's ludicrous to think that Fuentes only tested out EPO on his athletes in 1992. He probably was aware of it and could get hold of it before the Tour De France cyclists.
I would be surprised if a few familar names in athletics were not using it by 1987/88.
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zxcvxzcv wrote:
3:35.59 in Nairobi at altitude April 29, 2023 is both over a year ago and equivalent to 3:32 even for an altitude-born and trained athlete.
The reason you get guys like this appear seemingly out of nowhere from Kenya is that there are enormous groups of guys training with or just on the outside of the training groups there, doing nothing but running, eating, and sleeping for the opportunity. They have to be really good just to get into any of the European races.
Not sure what your point is in the first paragraph. So you are supporting me against ThoughtLessLeader who thinks that 3:33 was his limit last year?
Yes, we know that there are thousands of sub-elite Kenyan milers who are racing every week and their results are not recorded. At the same time, we also know that all the kids and young men in Kenya want to do is play soccer, and track participation is really, really low. Hardly anybody in Kenya knows who Kipchoge is, let alone Potato Tim.
But anyway, to repeat - Canova has stated twice that Komen only started training 12 months before last year.
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Coevett wrote:
At the same time, we also know that all the kids and young men in Kenya want to do is play soccer, and track participation is really, really low. Hardly anybody in Kenya knows who Kipchoge is, let alone Potato Tim.
.
"We also know"? Why are you lying again? What do you gain by lying?
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