The phenoms are being missed in the United States in the hs system. Alan Webb ran 3:53.43 in the system (with someone who would become a pro coach) in 2001. There have been 3:56-59 Americans out of hs systems. Then there was a 3:34 hs'er, Hobbs Kessler, being coached by Ron Warhurst, a great college and pro coach, and he was training with pros, including a two-time Olympic medalist. Brazier was among the most talented ever in high school, yet he only ran 1:47, with a huge negative split, and then 4 seconds faster with a talented collegiate group at Texas A and M the following year. Will Sumner ran 1:46.5 in hs, with his father and mother coaching him, former pro athletes, but even there he was nowhere near Laros until a year at Georgia, where he dropped down to low 1:44 at 19. So, we're not getting the Myers/Laros/Jakob level high schoolers because our guys are not training with professionals in clubs, except for Kessler.
I disagree that they are being truly missed. Some are probably a year or two are undertrained and a year behind a la Cole Hocker, Brazier or Yared Nuguse. Does it really matter if they run fast at age 17-18 as long as they get there at age 19-20 and beyond ? To me, no.
The phenoms are being missed in the United States in the hs system. Alan Webb ran 3:53.43 in the system (with someone who would become a pro coach) in 2001. There have been 3:56-59 Americans out of hs systems. Then there was a 3:34 hs'er, Hobbs Kessler, being coached by Ron Warhurst, a great college and pro coach, and he was training with pros, including a two-time Olympic medalist. Brazier was among the most talented ever in high school, yet he only ran 1:47, with a huge negative split, and then 4 seconds faster with a talented collegiate group at Texas A and M the following year. Will Sumner ran 1:46.5 in hs, with his father and mother coaching him, former pro athletes, but even there he was nowhere near Laros until a year at Georgia, where he dropped down to low 1:44 at 19. So, we're not getting the Myers/Laros/Jakob level high schoolers because our guys are not training with professionals in clubs, except for Kessler.
I disagree that they are being truly missed. Some are probably a year or two are undertrained and a year behind a la Cole Hocker, Brazier or Yared Nuguse. Does it really matter if they run fast at age 17-18 as long as they get there at age 19-20 and beyond ? To me, no.
To me yes. Take a Donovan Brazier. If he was a bit better as an 18 year old, maybe he would have been an Olympic medalist as a 19 year old. Or ant least get enough experience to medal in the WC the following year. Same thing with Hocker. Maybe a bit more training in HS and he had an Olympic bronze. You only get so many WC/olympics when you are in that 20-27 year old physical prime. Missing 1-2 because you undertrained hurts.
And for the guys who are really missed it is hard to say. Are there like 4:15 milers with really crappy coaching (say 25mpw all intervals, no summer running) who would be 3:57 guys with good coaching? Do they drop out of the sport before getting good training? Maybe. There definitely are the Brian Sell guys who only run 4:30 but who are horribly undertrained…
--->Does it really matter if they run fast at age 17-18 as long as they get there at age 19-20 and beyond ? To me, no.
It does matter. That is 2 years of development you are giving your competitors, and it is simply lost time.
If you were 2 years behind a great runner at 18, then in 2 years you may be as good as them at 18. The problem is they are also 2 years better. Same problem 2 years later. You may catch up someday, but not after losing some peak years at a disadvantage.
It’s all but guaranteed he’s going to be the youngest entrant in the Men’s 1500m at the Olympics. Anyone know who is the youngest runner in history to reach an Olympic final in the 1500m?
--->Does it really matter if they run fast at age 17-18 as long as they get there at age 19-20 and beyond ? To me, no.
It does matter. That is 2 years of development you are giving your competitors, and it is simply lost time.
If you were 2 years behind a great runner at 18, then in 2 years you may be as good as them at 18. The problem is they are also 2 years better. Same problem 2 years later. You may catch up someday, but not after losing some peak years at a disadvantage.
Imagine an elite runners prime is 20-28. How much does it hurt if you don’t hit your peak 23? You have missed out on 1/3 of your prime. i know historically we though distance guys didn’t peak until 25. But how much of that was it took til then to get like 4 80mpw years of training in? We call all those 18 year old Kenyans like kipchoge age cheats when they don’t have massive improvement later but how much is just them doing the work at 15,16, and 17 versus Americans who didn’t do the work til 21,22, and 23?
granted unless you start training as like a 10 year old, it is going to be hard to be able to start putting in the work as a 15 year old. You almost need some triathlon age grouper thing where kids built a huge base with swimming, biking, and a bit of running and then at 14 crank up the running if that is what they are better at. Call it the Allen Webb plan. The problem of course is making sure they get good coaching at 14 and not some random teacher.
So if El Guerrouj had super spikes the WR would be 3:39.13?
Combining today's show with the drugs that could sneak past drug testing in his era, I wouldn't completely rule 3:39 out. But I find that a useless exercise, because there are huge factors that affect performances in different era's. I find it best to just compare the runners as they raced.
And he got checked really badly by McSweyn in the final 100m or he might have won and would certainly have gone at least 0.5s faster.
Yeah he was out on his legs and tried to come through the inside though. He should have come around the outside, might have been 2m faster, don't think he would have won though.
Nah, Stewy like many smart front runners showed him the inside, then closed it. Well played, lesson learnt.
Yeah he was out on his legs and tried to come through the inside though. He should have come around the outside, might have been 2m faster, don't think he would have won though.
Nah, Stewy like many smart front runners showed him the inside, then closed it. Well played, lesson learnt.
Good point, Julio. Perhaps Stewy should have saved it for the Nationals.
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was there on the night, (and took video so have confirmed this) Myers just came up to the back of Stewy a bit quick, and clipped his heel ever so slightly. made both of them stumble, but Cam was worse off. Hope all the best for Cam's future!
To me yes. Take a Donovan Brazier. If he was a bit better as an 18 year old, maybe he would have been an Olympic medalist as a 19 year old. Or ant least get enough experience to medal in the WC the following year. Same thing with Hocker. Maybe a bit more training in HS and he had an Olympic bronze. You only get so many WC/olympics when you are in that 20-27 year old physical prime. Missing 1-2 because you undertrained hurts.
And for the guys who are really missed it is hard to say. Are there like 4:15 milers with really crappy coaching (say 25mpw all intervals, no summer running) who would be 3:57 guys with good coaching? Do they drop out of the sport before getting good training? Maybe. There definitely are the Brian Sell guys who only run 4:30 but who are horribly undertrained…
I am yes and no. -I see no reason why one should under train when being young, but I also think there’s a real danger of training too hard /wrongfully in order to artificially peak as a youngster.. What Myers does I’m not sure of, but I really hope he holds something back…
In Norway the US is infamous because of what is considered being a too tough artificially forced shape for the high school / college (especially the latter) racing season.
When Jakob Ingebrigtsen was 16 years old (3.39 1500m / 3.56 mile) he said in an interview that he strongly disagreed with Coe and Cram, who suggested that he should work on his 800m speed / kicking speed.
Futhermore he said something like this (paraphrasing after memory): “It doesn’t matter how good you are as a 16 years old. -You will still be 10+ seconds behind the top elite. What’s matter is what you can do in the long term… Forcing an artificial form / peak is not the way to go, one has to build brick on bricks patiently, based on one’s stronger sides, not the weak ones.”
I’m pretty sure Jakob could have been way better as a 16 old if he had adjusted his training in the competition season and tried to peak at all costs. F.ex he ran a pb in the 5000m in the Norwegian champs (won easily over a 13.20 guy), after also winning the 1500m final (+heats) and the steeplechase and bronze in the 800m (+heats) - everything very close to (after) running a 800m pb in another race. Surely he could have performed even better if trying to hit a peak form…
And still: I don’t think Jakob tries to peak at all costs even now before the championships. He clearly hopes to evolve to an even better shape / peak by strength and simply becoming older (more training in the tank). I really hope and believe Myers and other current stellar youngsters got the same cool and long term thinking…
To me yes. Take a Donovan Brazier. If he was a bit better as an 18 year old, maybe he would have been an Olympic medalist as a 19 year old. Or ant least get enough experience to medal in the WC the following year. Same thing with Hocker. Maybe a bit more training in HS and he had an Olympic bronze. You only get so many WC/olympics when you are in that 20-27 year old physical prime. Missing 1-2 because you undertrained hurts.
And for the guys who are really missed it is hard to say. Are there like 4:15 milers with really crappy coaching (say 25mpw all intervals, no summer running) who would be 3:57 guys with good coaching? Do they drop out of the sport before getting good training? Maybe. There definitely are the Brian Sell guys who only run 4:30 but who are horribly undertrained…
I am yes and no. -I see no reason why one should under train when being young, but I also think there’s a real danger of training too hard /wrongfully in order to artificially peak as a youngster.. What Myers does I’m not sure of, but I really hope he holds something back…
In Norway the US is infamous because of what is considered being a too tough artificially forced shape for the high school / college (especially the latter) racing season.
When Jakob Ingebrigtsen was 16 years old (3.39 1500m / 3.56 mile) he said in an interview that he strongly disagreed with Coe and Cram, who suggested that he should work on his 800m speed / kicking speed.
Futhermore he said something like this (paraphrasing after memory): “It doesn’t matter how good you are as a 16 years old. -You will still be 10+ seconds behind the top elite. What’s matter is what you can do in the long term… Forcing an artificial form / peak is not the way to go, one has to build brick on bricks patiently, based on one’s stronger sides, not the weak ones.”
I’m pretty sure Jakob could have been way better as a 16 old if he had adjusted his training in the competition season and tried to peak at all costs. F.ex he ran a pb in the 5000m in the Norwegian champs (won easily over a 13.20 guy), after also winning the 1500m final (+heats) and the steeplechase and bronze in the 800m (+heats) - everything very close to (after) running a 800m pb in another race. Surely he could have performed even better if trying to hit a peak form…
And still: I don’t think Jakob tries to peak at all costs even now before the championships. He clearly hopes to evolve to an even better shape / peak by strength and simply becoming older (more training in the tank). I really hope and believe Myers and other current stellar youngsters got the same cool and long term thinking…
Nice post. Training long term. That's what Coe did.
To me yes. Take a Donovan Brazier. If he was a bit better as an 18 year old, maybe he would have been an Olympic medalist as a 19 year old. Or ant least get enough experience to medal in the WC the following year. Same thing with Hocker. Maybe a bit more training in HS and he had an Olympic bronze. You only get so many WC/olympics when you are in that 20-27 year old physical prime. Missing 1-2 because you undertrained hurts.
And for the guys who are really missed it is hard to say. Are there like 4:15 milers with really crappy coaching (say 25mpw all intervals, no summer running) who would be 3:57 guys with good coaching? Do they drop out of the sport before getting good training? Maybe. There definitely are the Brian Sell guys who only run 4:30 but who are horribly undertrained…
I am yes and no. -I see no reason why one should under train when being young, but I also think there’s a real danger of training too hard /wrongfully in order to artificially peak as a youngster.. What Myers does I’m not sure of, but I really hope he holds something back…
In Norway the US is infamous because of what is considered being a too tough artificially forced shape for the high school / college (especially the latter) racing season.
When Jakob Ingebrigtsen was 16 years old (3.39 1500m / 3.56 mile) he said in an interview that he strongly disagreed with Coe and Cram, who suggested that he should work on his 800m speed / kicking speed.
Futhermore he said something like this (paraphrasing after memory): “It doesn’t matter how good you are as a 16 years old. -You will still be 10+ seconds behind the top elite. What’s matter is what you can do in the long term… Forcing an artificial form / peak is not the way to go, one has to build brick on bricks patiently, based on one’s stronger sides, not the weak ones.”
I’m pretty sure Jakob could have been way better as a 16 old if he had adjusted his training in the competition season and tried to peak at all costs. F.ex he ran a pb in the 5000m in the Norwegian champs (won easily over a 13.20 guy), after also winning the 1500m final (+heats) and the steeplechase and bronze in the 800m (+heats) - everything very close to (after) running a 800m pb in another race. Surely he could have performed even better if trying to hit a peak form…
And still: I don’t think Jakob tries to peak at all costs even now before the championships. He clearly hopes to evolve to an even better shape / peak by strength and simply becoming older (more training in the tank). I really hope and believe Myers and other current stellar youngsters got the same cool and long term thinking…
It is hard to say if some more speed development as a 13 year old would mean JI could be running 1:42 with a sub 47. Speed. Maybe Cram was right and going for the short term aerobic development benefits was wrong. Who knows.
And yes the issue is always do they do proper training or do they just do hard training
. It is pretty easy to go all the 35mpw guys should bump themselves up to 60 with some easy runs. A good chunk of them aren’t ready though if they only started running 3 years ago. Same thing with speed development and the like. It is one thing to do some drills. Some coach though is going to go 8x400 all out is they way to go though.
Almost beating a world champ reminds of many years ago a 17 year old beating an Olympic Champ when Jim Ryan beat Peter Snell. But a 17 yea old Jakob Ingebrigtsen ran a 3:31 1500 which converts to 3:48 mile and Hobbs Kessler ran 3:34 which converts to a 3:50 mile. Metaphorically kids are definitely eating their Wheaties these days. I'm over 60 but I run a ton up to 65 -70 miles a week and I recently ran a 5k and felt good, 22 minutes, but I was crushed by a 9 year old. These little kids are just athletic super heroes these days, LMAO!
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