Who is saying she has a vagina and breasts? I have seen no evidence Semenya has more developed breasts than a typical male.
And here is the definition of vagina: " The passage leading from the opening of the vulva to the cervix of the uterus in female mammals." By this definition, there's no way Semenya has a vagina.
Given that she lacks breasts, vagina, uterus, and ovaries - all the parts of the body unique to women - and has never had them, and has XY chromosomes and some male sex organs, it's hard for me to understand how she can be described as intersex as opposed to male. Shouldn't she have female sex organs in order to be described as intersex? Maybe she does have ovaries?
As the expert on this, RunRagged, can confirm, Semenya has no female reproductive organs and lacks mammary glands as well. No anatomical features unique to XX females are present. So nobody is saying, "This woman with breasts and various female body parts is actually male." But various posters ARE saying, "This individual who has all male anatomy minus one very immediately noticeable part, and more importantly, male hormone levels both during competition and during development, is male."
Agree or not, that is what various posters contend. Now, the prostate missing was added by RunRagged - and many thanks to her for very informed and educated posting - so perhaps more than just one organ is absent when compared to a great majority of males.
But neither the prostate nor the other appendage is what gives the best male runners an 11% advantage over the best female runners over a wide range of distances. (It could be 10%, then 9, as the events get longer. By the way, you may notice that Semenya was nowhere near 11% better than the best XX athletes. That would have put the performances in question close to men's world records. But Semenya is also not at the very top of male performance. Nor are 99.99% of male athletes.)
Testosterone and other hormones do. Semenya's hormones are, and have been since prior to birth, well within (not at the bottom end of) typical male ranges.
This is why many believe that Semenya, athough welcome to compete in men's competitions, should not be allowed to compete in women's competitions. You may agree or not, but that is what one faction of posters believes. Just clearing up apparent confusion as to what exactly is being written here.
Thank you for your kind words. Given that I'm often called a bigot, racist and even worse for posting factual information about Semenya's DSD - and about the whole sorry Semenya saga - I'm always glad when told that my posts are helpful.
But sorry if I gave the impression that Semenya's DSD causes the prostate to be missing. I don't believe that's what I actually said. But at any rate, it's definitely not what I meant.
In males, the enzyme deficiency that causes Sememya's DSD - 5-ARD - prevents the prostate and penis from developing normally prior to birth. But that doesn't mean those two male sex organs are missing.
Male persons with 5-ARD typically are born with underdeveloped prostates. Their prostates are smaller than usual, but they're definitely present. As are the other parts of the male reproductive tract such as vas deferns, seminal vesicles and ducts.
Once they hits age 11-12-13, males with 5-ARD begin going through normal male puberty of adolescence, and many of them begin developing external genitalia that outwardly look more obviously male. This often means movement of the testicles to a place lower down in the path of descent to the bottom of the inginual canal or the skin of the outer groin - and development of a penis. (In the Dominican Republic, where XY 5-ARD has an unusually high prevalence, this male-only DSD is known as "penis at 12.")
However, even if they experience penile growth and additional testicular descent in adolescence, males with 5-ARD still end up with underdeveloped prostates. Their prostates usually don't make seminal fluid in adequate amounts or with the exact components and chemistry needed to successfully transport sperm from their testes (wherever they're located).
Combined with the atypical whereabouts of their testes - and the the fact that they usually have malformed, minuscule or still-missing penises - prostate insufficiency explains why adult males with 5-ARD still face fertility challenges even when they make viable sperm (as many do). But prostate insufficiency is a far cry from not having a prostate at all.
Interesting. Casteration would really be a win-win for everyone.
Removal of Semenya's healthy testes would likely do Semenya a great deal of physical and psychological harm.
Well obviously Semenya's testes will never be removed. Semenya is a biological male. Why would a biological male, who obviously identifies as a male (despite claiming the opposite) remove their testes? That would make no sense.
Who is saying she has a vagina and breasts? I have seen no evidence Semenya has more developed breasts than a typical male.
And here is the definition of vagina: " The passage leading from the opening of the vulva to the cervix of the uterus in female mammals." By this definition, there's no way Semenya has a vagina.
Given that she lacks breasts, vagina, uterus, and ovaries - all the parts of the body unique to women - and has never had them, and has XY chromosomes and some male sex organs, it's hard for me to understand how she can be described as intersex as opposed to male. Shouldn't she have female sex organs in order to be described as intersex? Maybe she does have ovaries?
No, Semenya does NOT have ovaries. Semenya is a 100% biological male who is missing a penis. Just because a male is missing a penis doesn't make them part female.
Please don't say this. Removal of Semenya's healthy testes would likely do Semenya a great deal of physical and psychological harm.
Semenya has testified in court and stated in many interviews that Semeny suffered horribly when Semenya took oral estrogen to suppress Semenya's testicular function in an effort to lower Semenya's serum testosterone level to 10 nmol/L.
Even though 10 nmol/L is still well within the normal range of T for healthy males (7.7-29.4 nmol/L), Semenya found it extremely difficult to function with a T level in that vicinity. Semenya says the several-year period in Semenya's life (2010-2015) when Semenya took estrogen to try to lower Semenya's T was "torture." Semenya likened it to being "stabbed" in the gut every day.
Of course, Semenya's hyperbolic claims can't be taken at face value. IMO, little that Semenya says can be trusted because Semenya is a scam artist running a long con who's gotten a great deal of mileage out of lying and playing the victim. Still, I think it would be unjustifiably cruel for Semenya to undergo castration.
Imagine hating pronouns so much that you literally remove the entire part of speech from your vocabulary.
Why not get rid of the word "it" as well?
I get that you are trying to be cute, but it comes off as overly petty.
It’s not cute at all, quite the contrary. Intentionally choosing to not accord trans or intersex people the dignity of their preferred pronouns is by definition transphobic.
That plus its verbosity is what makes it Transphobia Verbosa.
Taking t lowering drugs probably made cs feel like less of a man and more like a woman ie weaker, slower, etc.. isn't that the point? The women she wants to beat are also competing with this same lower t levels.
It would've made her feel like a man with hypogonadism which is hardly surprising.
Is there any evidence to support your theory that Didrikson was DSD? What makes you think she wasn't just an extraordinary athlete at a time of limited competition in women's sports?
I read the Wikipedia article then searched a bit more and found this, obviously someone may have simply claimed it but we are also speculating.
"The fact that Babe evidently became pregnant several times during her years with George (and miscarried several times, according to Betty Dodd) suggests that she was a "normal" XX. If so, she would have confounded her critics by passing the test with flying colors."
Is there any evidence to support your theory that Didrikson was DSD? What makes you think she wasn't just an extraordinary athlete at a time of limited competition in women's sports?
I read the Wikipedia article then searched a bit more and found this, obviously someone may have simply claimed it but we are also speculating.
"The fact that Babe evidently became pregnant several times during her years with George (and miscarried several times, according to Betty Dodd) suggests that she was a "normal" XX. If so, she would have confounded her critics by passing the test with flying colors."
That's an incredibly weak statement that you found which proves absolutely nothing.
Thank you for your kind words. Given that I'm often called a bigot, racist and even worse for posting factual information about Semenya's DSD - and about the whole sorry Semenya saga - I'm always glad when told that my posts are helpful.
But sorry if I gave the impression that Semenya's DSD causes the prostate to be missing. I don't believe that's what I actually said. But at any rate, it's definitely not what I meant.
In males, the enzyme deficiency that causes Sememya's DSD - 5-ARD - prevents the prostate and penis from developing normally prior to birth. But that doesn't mean those two male sex organs are missing.
Male persons with 5-ARD typically are born with underdeveloped prostates. Their prostates are smaller than usual, but they're definitely present. As are the other parts of the male reproductive tract such as vas deferns, seminal vesicles and ducts.
Once they hits age 11-12-13, males with 5-ARD begin going through normal male puberty of adolescence, and many of them begin developing external genitalia that outwardly look more obviously male. This often means movement of the testicles to a place lower down in the path of descent to the bottom of the inginual canal or the skin of the outer groin - and development of a penis. (In the Dominican Republic, where XY 5-ARD has an unusually high prevalence, this male-only DSD is known as "penis at 12.")
However, even if they experience penile growth and additional testicular descent in adolescence, males with 5-ARD still end up with underdeveloped prostates. Their prostates usually don't make seminal fluid in adequate amounts or with the exact components and chemistry needed to successfully transport sperm from their testes (wherever they're located).
Combined with the atypical whereabouts of their testes - and the the fact that they usually have malformed, minuscule or still-missing penises - prostate insufficiency explains why adult males with 5-ARD still face fertility challenges even when they make viable sperm (as many do). But prostate insufficiency is a far cry from not having a prostate at all.
Excllent post yet again! That was me to whom you responded about the prostate. I must have misunderstood that part of an earlier post. But if I am understanding this one correctly, it seems like the dissimilarities between Semenya and a majority of males without the genetic marker you refer to are even less significant than I had believed. For example, a few organs are small and underdeveloped when compared to the average XY individual as opposed to missing altogether.
Would it be accurate to state that no element of Semenya's anatomy is female by any scientific definition? If that is the case, why would 'intersex' be accurate at all? Doesn't that term refer to a mix of typical male and typical female characteristics? If no female characteristics exist, isn't 'male' the only accurate term even though a few typically male charateristics are unusually developed (but not missing)?
A related question: Are you sure about the lack of facial hair? If lack thereof is a characteristic of individuals with the relevant genetics, could that be considered a 'female' anatomical characteristic? If so, would 'intersex' be an applicable term here? If we don't know about that in any individual's case, is it simply likely that Niyonsaba, Semenya, and others (I can't recall the recent steeplechaser's and 200 runner's names right now) make sure never to be seen in public without being clean-shaven (or, more likely, waxed)?
I have been wondering this. If they don't grow typically male facial hair, that could be an argument that they are at least in one sense female. But if they do - and get caught by paparazzi with 5:00 shadow or 3-day stubble - it would seem the tide of public opinion could shift dramatically.
Interesting. Casteration would really be a win-win for everyone.
Please don't say this. Removal of Semenya's healthy testes would likely do Semenya a great deal of physical and psychological harm.
Semenya has testified in court and stated in many interviews that Semeny suffered horribly when Semenya took oral estrogen to suppress Semenya's testicular function in an effort to lower Semenya's serum testosterone level to 10 nmol/L.
Even though 10 nmol/L is still well within the normal range of T for healthy males (7.7-29.4 nmol/L), Semenya found it extremely difficult to function with a T level in that vicinity. Semenya says the several-year period in Semenya's life (2010-2015) when Semenya took estrogen to try to lower Semenya's T was "torture." Semenya likened it to being "stabbed" in the gut every day.
Of course, Semenya's hyperbolic claims can't be taken at face value. IMO, little that Semenya says can be trusted because Semenya is a scam artist running a long con who's gotten a great deal of mileage out of lying and playing the victim. Still, I think it would be unjustifiably cruel for Semenya to undergo castration.
It was just a response to this:
Comedyreleaf wrote: It’s a ballsy statement. Semenya and other DSD athletes are a newly acknowledged phenomenon that has always been present. It mostly affects regions where access to healthcare isn’t great (when it occurs in most advanced countries they treat it due to the high risk of testicular cancer). Some athletes of the past were likely DSD, but are not acknowledged as such. Link:
I'll admit, the pun on Semenya's last name may have been a bit off-color, but if the above is indeed true, castration wound be a logical form of treatment for a condition posing a "high risk of testicular cancer", no?
Is there any evidence to support your theory that Didrikson was DSD? What makes you think she wasn't just an extraordinary athlete at a time of limited competition in women's sports?
I met this young lady and her wife once and got an autograph and photos.Such a gracious and humble soul and she has a smaller build than I expected. I love her to bits.
That is a lie. I saw at Worlds in Eugene. She was huge and hugely stout compared to ANY other woman in her race.
The length of the average vagina is 3 inches. How long is her "vagina"?
She has recessed penis. That is the long & short of it.
Whether having testicles makes her less of a woman is moot, as having XY chromosomes, testicles, and male levels of testosterone all make her not female, and that is the issue.
I don't know why the various athletics associations don't change the titles of events from "Womens" to "Female" because then all the (somewhat disingenuous) ambiguity goes away.
You can be an XX man and race the females, because that is what you biologically are. How people want to define themselves and live their lives is totally up to them, but it makes no sense having males compete with females.
Lastly I can't believe there are so many people spending so much time worrying about this topic who still don't know the difference between sex and gender...
If they don't grow typically male facial hair, that could be an argument that they are at least in one sense female.
No. There are a number of different conditions that could cause a male not to have hair like most other males. Lack of hair doesn't make a male partly female.
Just like there are some females that have a condition that makes them have lots of body hair. Excess body hair doesn't make a female partly male.
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If they don't grow typically male facial hair, that could be an argument that they are at least in one sense female.
No. There are a number of different conditions that could cause a male not to have hair like most other males. Lack of hair doesn't make a male partly female.
Just like there are some females that have a condition that makes them have lots of body hair. Excess body hair doesn't make a female partly male.
Good comment. I don't necessarily disagree; I just don't know anything about the hair situation. I thought RunRagged wrote that lack of facial hair was a common symptom of the particular DSD in question. I was just hoping to clarify (I obviously don't understand this stuff nearly as well as someone educated on the topic.)
As of right now, I still consider it a possibility that Semenya, Seyni (one of the names I couldn't recall earlier), et. al. just make darn sure they don't go out the front door unshaven. Or, they don't get the typical male hair. I don't know.
No. There are a number of different conditions that could cause a male not to have hair like most other males. Lack of hair doesn't make a male partly female.
Just like there are some females that have a condition that makes them have lots of body hair. Excess body hair doesn't make a female partly male.
Good comment. I don't necessarily disagree; I just don't know anything about the hair situation. I thought RunRagged wrote that lack of facial hair was a common symptom of the particular DSD in question. I was just hoping to clarify (I obviously don't understand this stuff nearly as well as someone educated on the topic.)
As of right now, I still consider it a possibility that Semenya, Seyni (one of the names I couldn't recall earlier), et. al. just make darn sure they don't go out the front door unshaven. Or, they don't get the typical male hair. I don't know.
Males with 5-ARD have reduced or absent androgenic hair.
Whether having testicles makes her less of a woman is moot, as having XY chromosomes, testicles, and male levels of testosterone all make her not female, and that is the issue.
I don't know why the various athletics associations don't change the titles of events from "Womens" to "Female" because then all the (somewhat disingenuous) ambiguity goes away.
You seem uninformed. That is not the issue and hasn’t been since the last century. World Athletics’ eligibility rules don’t distinguish between the words “woman” and “female” and use them interchangeably. It’s just the bubbas here on LR who keep harping on the distinction. WA defines a term called Transgender Female. Look it up if you care to have an informed opinion.
Maybe I am uninformed, but as far as I know female is a biological category and Semenya does not fit into it. "Woman" is a social construct and whether she fits that definition is subjective. Do you disagree with that? What am I missing?
If as you say World Athletics is using "woman" and "female" interchangeably I would argue - based on my admittedly inexpert understanding - that they are incorrect, or at least unclear, in doing so.
Women with balls have always been with us. We just didn't know about their existence until 1950s. And then, doctors tried to hide their existence from the public. They even tried to hide it from those women themselves, and surgically removed their balls without telling them the real reason for the surgery.
Women with balls have always been with us. We just didn't know about their existence until 1950s. And then, doctors tried to hide their existence from the public. They even tried to hide it from those women themselves, and surgically removed their balls without telling them the real reason for the surgery.
That might be an interesting side discussion about other people. But Semenya does not fall into the "women with balls" category. Semenya is in the "men with balls" category.
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