I remember the old days when people were encouraged to run with people faster than them because that's how they would get faster. They weren't worried about a zone.
i think one reason i resist this is i don't buy the fast guys would go that fast on an easy day. if you told my XC team it was easy day we'd be off messing about in the trails/woods, we literally went in the sewers twice underground, jogged in the school in the AC, jogged around/through the band/drill team/football.
i also think most XC people would be working back from a result rather than complaining in the abstract about training. our expressions of how we felt were usually like i am tired, i feel good, this part hurts. not that easy run was 20 seconds too fast for someone of my speed. when i discuss the "soccer dispensation" i do so knowing what followed. my last year i lost the dispensation, got anemia, ran my slowest meet time ever. which, i can then explain in terms of poor diet meets more miles and pressure, as well as blood tests. i then ran my fastest split of any meet my last meet ever, as well as a decent time, having had plenty of rest. hmm i know what the culprit is.
i think part of it would be to me i am a gamer and i am only thinking about practice if i still feel my legs at the meet. otherwise, it's what are my meet times doing. if my times are going down practice is working. what do i care whether that run that one day was 20 seconds faster than it should be. i don't buy most runners have that mentality unless the meet gives them a reason to do so.
Here is the part you're evidently missing: the faster guys in the OP's "hobbyjogging" club are probably experienced, committed, less-talented runners who ran varsity on mediocre high school teams and wish they could be on their college team but aren't fast enough to be, so they run too hard every day because they're frustrated they're not as fast as the guys on the team (note: 100 million years ago when I was in college that was me). The OP has come to the sport from a totally different path, wants to do it "right" (where "right" means what websites and books tell him he should do). I don't get what is hard to believe about any of that.
out of curiosity the other day i looked up college club times as i had no sense how they compared to what i came from. my sense was "JV." because the 15 min types weren't showing up in m/any college club results. you could win high 16 low 17. ie JV.
similarly, i think back to myself and others, 17 high like he says these others were. i call bs that a 19 or 20 person can't keep up with them or is run off the grass/track by them. i get the 15 min guys. yeah, when i was first getting started and our top XC guy came over to do a second unofficial workout after hours, with some of our teammates, he had to circle back for some of us once or twice, on the run.
but a group of high 17-20+ people? that's a JV workout. i do not buy he's getting dropped on easy day, or conversely exhausting himself. bull. i buy on, say, mile intervals, that maybe he can only keep up some of those. or he's chasing the whole afternoon. i don't buy a 7-8 min mile "hurts" or is "counterproductive" or that people who in reality are barely faster imo meaningfully inflict anything.
i think my critics here are thinking of 15 min types but then typing 17:40. i saw people on our JV go from like 21 to 18 in a season. it's not some different body type or separate planet. 15 is. 15 they are running low 4 miles on a track and you start shrinking who can even keep up. and yeah, that fast, their idea of slow is JV meet pace. but that's not what the OP said.....
I remember the old days when people were encouraged to run with people faster than them because that's how they would get faster. They weren't worried about a zone.
my point is i think 99.99% of noobs running his pace are either thinking "this" or are like am i even up to this. they might be like wow that workout was nuts. they aren't complaining an easy day wasn't slow enough. to them that's just another day in paradise and not unusually taxing. it's weird for a noob to not be complaining about, say, some exhausting interval work where they are prodded to run faster, 6 mile repeats with short rest. that i buy. i don't buy they do that without moaning then freak out the next day because of some tepid workout they wish was easier. that is odd.
I remember the old days when people were encouraged to run with people faster than them because that's how they would get faster. They weren't worried about a zone.
my point is i think 99.99% of noobs running his pace are either thinking "this" or are like am i even up to this. they might be like wow that workout was nuts. they aren't complaining an easy day wasn't slow enough. to them that's just another day in paradise and not unusually taxing. it's weird for a noob to not be complaining about, say, some exhausting interval work where they are prodded to run faster, 6 mile repeats with short rest. that i buy. i don't buy they do that without moaning then freak out the next day because of some tepid workout they wish was easier. that is odd.
Going into it with a more realistic pace expectation made it much better today. There were slower, but still low 8s and a train and with more hills, and just expecting a faster pace than I did on Tuesday made it feel a ton better.
Take it easier between runs with them and add strides, and pretty soon you will be dropping massive time for 5k. Of course it is going to be tough at first but you've just started with them. Don't do all their runs in the first month but transition into it over a few months as the pace gets easier.
when i do club runs, im usually either running 1 minute slower than my easy, or a minute plus faster. I plan accordingly. It's either a tempo or faster, or super recovery run. I only do them every couple weeks, so i can plan my other runs around making that stimulus work for me.
Run on your own except on days when you want a faster pace . The problem with group runs is there is always someone who wants to push the pace and “win” the workout . I knew a lot of guys in high school and college who ran faster in workouts than they did in races .
I sometimes ran easy days with my club, and they’d usually start speeding up midway through the run. Id normally let them go even tho I was at least 20-30 mins faster over the marathon than them.
If you feel like it’s alright to keep up, go for it, if not just drop back. There’s no requirements that u need to keep up with them throughout the run.
Run on your own except on days when you want a faster pace . The problem with group runs is there is always someone who wants to push the pace and “win” the workout . I knew a lot of guys in high school and college who ran faster in workouts than they did in races .
That's the answer. Do your easy days alone and then you can go whatever pace feels right to you.
I was on a college team that frequently turned easy days into races - a bunch of competitive kids trying to "win" workouts. Then we wondered why we were tired and stale on race day.
This experience taught me to run alone after graduation. I set the pace on easy days and there's no one to complain about it.
the flaw in "run with the women" is this being roughly JV level the best women are probably mid-20s on times. average ones, worse. you can look it up for club running meets. the fast women who run 20 or below were channeled over to the full varsity teams, D1, D3. "polarization" rings abstracted. work your tookus off when told to do so. go easy when told to do so -- OR WHEN YOU FEEL TIRED. i don't understand the post here in part because when you told me easy i ran in a lawnchair with the slowest people out for practice, i loved pool days, but i think what makes you better are the tough days and anything sounding like backsliding on that rings either fake or counter-productive. and inasmuch as i say pay attention to your body ie when you feel tired, i do not understand blaming abstractions. i get i was already tired and they made easy day hard. i do not get just they made easy day hard. it's relative to what you're feeling. easy is meant to get the lead out of tired legs, if you weren't already tired, honestly, so what.
i don't get blaming the easy days when your time is such you need the work more than anything.
the flaw in "run with the women" is this being roughly JV level the best women are probably mid-20s on times. average ones, worse. you can look it up for club running meets. the fast women who run 20 or below were channeled over to the full varsity teams, D1, D3. "polarization" rings abstracted. work your tookus off when told to do so. go easy when told to do so -- OR WHEN YOU FEEL TIRED. i don't understand the post here in part because when you told me easy i ran in a lawnchair with the slowest people out for practice, i loved pool days, but i think what makes you better are the tough days and anything sounding like backsliding on that rings either fake or counter-productive. and inasmuch as i say pay attention to your body ie when you feel tired, i do not understand blaming abstractions. i get i was already tired and they made easy day hard. i do not get just they made easy day hard. it's relative to what you're feeling. easy is meant to get the lead out of tired legs, if you weren't already tired, honestly, so what.
i don't get blaming the easy days when your time is such you need the work more than anything.
I'm realizing now that the main issue is just that I got a bit rattled by the pace my 1st time. Expecting a faster than easy pace made it a ton better.
a chunk of running comes down to being able to stay with the pack as you get stressed. some of that is talent and fitness. some is mental.
conversely IMO a chunk of sports is knowing when to engage in self help. as in, my college soccer coach loved daily 2+ hour practices and 45 min pregame warmups. i felt like the team suffered attrition and tiredness as a result. so at a point i deliberately decided the practice before a game would be a low energy day for me, to save batteries for gameday, and that i would try some things to waste time during the overlong warmup period, eg, go to the bench and tape my socks, take too long to change into my uniform gear. ironically i got a reputation with the coach as a "gamer" -- well, i made sure the tank was full.
what i am skeptical of is the ability of a noob to identify when one or the other is called for. most ambitious noobs with dropping times are wired the first way. they would not notice or care if a slow day was too fast. they would be trying to stay with the pack so they can race better next time. it takes years and self awareness to figure out the "too much" aspect to know when the second reaction comes into play.
to me the meets are what matters and the "graph curve" your racing is taking. practice is a tool to improve those times. the tool is either working or not. if i feel exhausted and my times go bad, it is time to re-evaluate my training, diet, etc. otherwise IMO it's either the physical training or the mental toughness to chase the better runners each day that closes the gap over time. when i could go with the best milers on the team for most of a mile, ok, XC has worked.
a chunk of running comes down to being able to stay with the pack as you get stressed. some of that is talent and fitness. some is mental.
conversely IMO a chunk of sports is knowing when to engage in self help. as in, my college soccer coach loved daily 2+ hour practices and 45 min pregame warmups. i felt like the team suffered attrition and tiredness as a result. so at a point i deliberately decided the practice before a game would be a low energy day for me, to save batteries for gameday, and that i would try some things to waste time during the overlong warmup period, eg, go to the bench and tape my socks, take too long to change into my uniform gear. ironically i got a reputation with the coach as a "gamer" -- well, i made sure the tank was full.
what i am skeptical of is the ability of a noob to identify when one or the other is called for. most ambitious noobs with dropping times are wired the first way. they would not notice or care if a slow day was too fast. they would be trying to stay with the pack so they can race better next time. it takes years and self awareness to figure out the "too much" aspect to know when the second reaction comes into play.
to me the meets are what matters and the "graph curve" your racing is taking. practice is a tool to improve those times. the tool is either working or not. if i feel exhausted and my times go bad, it is time to re-evaluate my training, diet, etc. otherwise IMO it's either the physical training or the mental toughness to chase the better runners each day that closes the gap over time. when i could go with the best milers on the team for most of a mile, ok, XC has worked.
I have a history of mental weakness in racing that I'm trying to work on. I'm newish at this point January 2022 was when I started running, but 2 marathon training blocks and a little time after the 1st are my only sustained periods averaging over 20 mpw, and there was a solid 3 month gap of almost no running, and I haven't done much real speed work. But this 20:32 was actually a big step forward in improving my mental game. I very much think I have significant PRs left in me.
first off, a lot of the toughness and competitiveness you get doing track. to me try something like the 800 or 1500/mile. short, intense race where there is a pace and you have to try and stay with the pace then finish as hard as you can.
in XC we would do what was called a beep run. the coach would set up a loud regular beep noise on a stadium loudspeaker. i forget how many seconds. we were then trying to hit half or full lap milestones on the track on the beeps. over and over. for the better runners it was slightly below speed but stay on it. for the weaker runners it was stay with the beep and with the fast guys, as long as you could. maybe you do some sort of a set pace practice like that.
someone who runs a 20 in your club context should constantly have competitors around them in the race. that guy 20 yards ahead? try and slowly but surely reel him in. not all at once, but a few feet at a time. if someone tries to pass you, try and stay right with them for a few minutes. to me the act of chasing will get you the mental grit and the effort to go with the next guy up will pull you to faster times.
road races have a ton of people and several people around you all the time.
you just started -- or -- you already did a marathon training block? again, the red flags.
first off, a lot of the toughness and competitiveness you get doing track. to me try something like the 800 or 1500/mile. short, intense race where there is a pace and you have to try and stay with the pace then finish as hard as you can.
in XC we would do what was called a beep run. the coach would set up a loud regular beep noise on a stadium loudspeaker. i forget how many seconds. we were then trying to hit half or full lap milestones on the track on the beeps. over and over. for the better runners it was slightly below speed but stay on it. for the weaker runners it was stay with the beep and with the fast guys, as long as you could. maybe you do some sort of a set pace practice like that.
someone who runs a 20 in your club context should constantly have competitors around them in the race. that guy 20 yards ahead? try and slowly but surely reel him in. not all at once, but a few feet at a time. if someone tries to pass you, try and stay right with them for a few minutes. to me the act of chasing will get you the mental grit and the effort to go with the next guy up will pull you to faster times.
road races have a ton of people and several people around you all the time.
you just started -- or -- you already did a marathon training block? again, the red flags.
I said about a year and a half way back there. I was off by 4 months unless you take out my 3 months of being lazy. That was all with the responding to the JV soccer player anaology. But those 2 4 month periods plus just a little more are my only time running decent mileage, and again not much speed work. The 1st training block was the Higdon Novice 1 where I barely cared about pace at all and starting 100% fresh and the 2nd one I cared more, but I was not nearly as consistent as I had to be.I've done a 15k and been afraid of seeing the pace on my watch start with 6. My 20:32 was my 1st timed and measured attempt at racing a 5k.
i also find it hard to believe a 20 min 5k person is actually fussing over the supposed tweener nature of their practice schedule. it's a sophisticated complaint for an unsophisticated output. like a JV or rec soccer player arguing about whether the coach does actual conditioning or just sees running as incorporated into the practice structure and playing of soccer. which is a pro or high level college complaint.
What if the JV or rec league soccer player had aspirations to do better? He knows he isn't there now, but he wants to get there. And his only current experience is training for like a year and a half, but with a 3 month gap and a lot of inconsistency, and now he is wanting to stop the inconsistency stuff.
The quote I referenced earlier. Aside from the fact that I'm over 21 months now and I should estimate 2 years to the nearest half year instead of 1.5 nothing is contradictory. So I'm new ish to running and new to training for speed.
I was definitely overthinking stuff here. I've been running with this group about 6 months an I've dropped almost 2 minutes from my 5k in that time span. I will say though, there are some days where I don't keep up with the main pack and instead hang out behind them with the fastest person in the group who runs his easy runs slower that everyone else sometimes does.
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.
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