"unanswered questions is whether a PED even exists, that..."
LOL you gotta be the most ignorant poster here on letsrun ever. It's 2023!!
Evidently I'm not even in the top 3.
I'm not using the ambiguous term PED in the colloquial mythical and mystical sense that believers don't question, but in the literal sense of a substance sufficiently proven to produce unnaturally fast performances in elite marathon runners.
Who has shown that any PED is better than altitude training, for the marathon? Even the very best anti-doping experts essentially guess about performance improvement potential surrounded with weasel words without any real basis.
In 2023, it's been nearly 40 years since Carlos Lopes and Steve Jones ran 2:07:12/13, and sea-level athletes world-wide still struggle to beat those times.
It's curious that you think now is the moment to question performances, as if Ekiru represents the tipping point. Those who want to believe that East Africans have been doping for decades have raised this question decades ago. We already had a handful of 2:05 runners busted for doping, and what we are seeing now, in the era of new shoes, is a handful of 2:03 runners (rounding 2:02:57 to 2:03).
Is that actually true, or did you make that up to score a point? Please post the five East Africans "busted for doping" before 2016, who ran faster than 2:05:30 as per your rounding rule.
I didn't say "five East Africans before 2016", but "a handful of 2:05 runners". Kipchoge shattered the marathon in new shoes in Sept. 2018.
Here's four: Abderrahim Goumri, Wilson Erupe Loyanae, Mathew Kisorio, Abraham Kiptum
On a whim I started to look for more history from those vet doctors with the horse doping
They found some unknown high performance peptide in 2011 after the mysterious improvements in 2009, does anyone know what it turned out to be? If that exists, well they had years to improve on it
I don't think there is a PED that can improve performance more than a couple percent, certainly not at microdosing levels that somehow escapes testing.
It's not a question of what you (or anyone else) think(s). Has anyone shown that any PED exists, in any dose, that is more than ZERO percent better than WADA legal altitude training at producing best performances?
Altitude training performance benefits have been scientifically proven since the '90s. Described in terms of doping, it is like continuous EPO microdosing, stimulating both EPO production and red blood cell production.
Most all East Africans, including Kenyans, have lived in high altitude all their lives.
On a whim I started to look for more history from those vet doctors with the horse doping
They found some unknown high performance peptide in 2011 after the mysterious improvements in 2009, does anyone know what it turned out to be? If that exists, well they had years to improve on it
In a recent thread, Armstronglivs told me that horse-racing performance hasn't improved in the last 50 years, and that horse racing doping prevalence was less than athletics. I told him that was a load of horse shoot, finding many records set in the last two decades and a recent estimate of 60% prevalence.
On a whim I started to look for more history from those vet doctors with the horse doping
They found some unknown high performance peptide in 2011 after the mysterious improvements in 2009, does anyone know what it turned out to be? If that exists, well they had years to improve on it
In a recent thread, Armstronglivs told me that horse-racing performance hasn't improved in the last 50 years, and that horse racing doping prevalence was less than athletics. I told him that was a load of horse shoot, finding many records set in the last two decades and a recent estimate of 60% prevalence.
So you show you also know next to nothing about horse racing as well as human athletic achievement.
Is that actually true, or did you make that up to score a point? Please post the five East Africans "busted for doping" before 2016, who ran faster than 2:05:30 as per your rounding rule.
I didn't say "five East Africans before 2016", but "a handful of 2:05 runners". Kipchoge shattered the marathon in new shoes in Sept. 2018.
Here's four: Abderrahim Goumri, Wilson Erupe Loyanae, Mathew Kisorio, Abraham Kiptum
The super shoe era started in 2016, no matter what Kipchoge did in 2018. You said five 2:05 runners before the super shoe era, let's see:
Goumri, Morocco, best PB rounded: 2:06. LOL
Loyanae, East African, best PB rounded: 2:05. W00T!
Kisorio, East African, best PB rounded: 2:05 - but in December 2018. Pre super shoes: 2:07.
A. Kiptum, East African, best PB rounded (on a short course!): 2:05 - but in October 2017. Pre super shoes: 2:12
Conclusion: you claimed 5, but actually it was only 1. You exaggerated by a factor of 5. Actually not bad by your standards. At least you were 20% correct this time, instead of making it all up.
In a recent thread, Armstronglivs told me that horse-racing performance hasn't improved in the last 50 years, and that horse racing doping prevalence was less than athletics. I told him that was a load of horse shoot, finding many records set in the last two decades and a recent estimate of 60% prevalence.
So you show you also know next to nothing about horse racing as well as human athletic achievement.
I never claimed to know anything about horse racing, but in about 5 minutes, unsurprisingly, I found everything that you said wasn't real.
The super shoe era started in 2016, no matter what Kipchoge did in 2018. You said five 2:05 runners before the super shoe era, let's see:
Goumri, Morocco, best PB rounded: 2:06. LOL
Loyanae, East African, best PB rounded: 2:05. W00T!
Kisorio, East African, best PB rounded: 2:05 - but in December 2018. Pre super shoes: 2:07.
A. Kiptum, East African, best PB rounded (on a short course!): 2:05 - but in October 2017. Pre super shoes: 2:12
Conclusion: you claimed 5, but actually it was only 1. You exaggerated by a factor of 5. Actually not bad by your standards. At least you were 20% correct this time, instead of making it all up.
Are you suggesting that I exaggerated the relevance of doping in the marathon before supershoes? Sorry I got swept up in the hype and included too much of the mythology. I will check myself in the future and for now accept your argument without further dispute that doping's impact on the marathon before the era of supershoes was insignificant, if not negligible, with only one credible doped 2:05 performance, assuming that even that one performance was doped.
But much of the rest of your post is of your own construction, having little to do with my post.
Supershoes in 2016 is your own invention. Marathon times were not impacted by the latest shoes before Kipchoge's 2018 performance.
I did not "claim 5", that is also your invention. I said a "handful". Here is a typical definition (from Quora): "The "handful" word is actually more of a comparative concept than a quantity. ... Also, I think it often makes sense, ... to generally assume it's five or fewer."
Abraham Kiptum ran 2:04:16 on a short course in Abu Dhabi. I'm unaware that his 2:05:26 in Amsterdam 2017 was short. Is that really a true story, or made up?
Kisorio for me is borderline, as he doped with steroids in 2012, and I'm not aware if he ran in supershoes in 2018. I will accept without argument any suggestion his 2:04:53 in Valencia 2018 was clean, either in supershoes or not.
But again, before the era of supershoes, I will concede your irrefutable demonstration that I exaggerated the relevance and effect of doping in the marathon, and that doping in the top marathon performances up until then was virtually unproved.
Ekiru’s performance at the time placed him sixth on the all time list. Surely this raises eyebrows around performances that are similar and faster? Not least with the fact that,
”The AIU has requested that the Anti-Doping Agency of Kenya also refer the senior doctor to Kenyan criminal authorities for further investigation.”
It is hard ( and getting harder) to believe that many, if any of today’s athletic performances are achieved without “help”. People say that athletics need these superhuman performances in order to bring the spectators and sponsors in. But as the following of the sport seems to be dwindling and every new drugs scandal seems to hasten its demise, is this really the case? Maybe we should look for other solutions to increase interest?
Sage Canaday has already made the same observation.
But when Sage says supershoes help take minutes off one's marathon time you don't believe him.
You are not coherent.
You may not have noticed that shoes and rekrunner are separate subjects. If Sage has opinions on US politics am I obliged to share those, too? On the other hand, he is totally on the money with rekrunner. That makes him more perceptive than you.
At this point, with all the busts even for things like triamcinalone, I think Kenyans are being nerfed so the rest of the world can keep up. Elite sport is incredibly dirty on the world level.
I never claimed to know anything about horse racing, but in about 5 minutes, unsurprisingly, I found everything that you said wasn't real.
That's because your 5 minutes always puts you wrong. You've spent twenty years on doping and still don't see it.
You seem perpetually confused, projecting your intellectual failures onto others rather than solving them -- the 5 minutes is always more than sufficient to disprove your baseless imagination.
You have spent 50 years as a doping disciple, apparently without any proof. I have spent some years, but less than 20, searching for causes of fast running performance, but I cannot see something that has never been shown or observed.
But when Sage says supershoes help take minutes off one's marathon time you don't believe him.
You are not coherent.
You may not have noticed that shoes and rekrunner are separate subjects. If Sage has opinions on US politics am I obliged to share those, too? On the other hand, he is totally on the money with rekrunner. That makes him more perceptive than you.
Your last sentence is idiotic. Nothing strange, coming from the biggest idiot on this forum.
But when Sage says supershoes help take minutes off one's marathon time you don't believe him.
You are not coherent.
You may not have noticed that shoes and rekrunner are separate subjects. If Sage has opinions on US politics am I obliged to share those, too? On the other hand, he is totally on the money with rekrunner. That makes him more perceptive than you.
You are using someone as an authority who - from your crazy point of view - writes complete nonsense about other things?
Rekrunner, you are truly unbelievable. First, I catch you with a wild exaggeration ("a handful" instead of 1). Then instead of admitting it, you falsely claim it's four runners, not one, hard core outright lying with 3 of 4 four examples.
Then you lied about what I said. Repeatedly. A couple of examples just from this post of yours:
"I will check myself in the future and for now accept your argument without further dispute that doping's impact on the marathon before the era of supershoes was insignificant, if not negligible" - hard core lie. My argument? I said nothing of that sort.
"Supershoes in 2016 is your own invention." - such an obvious and stupid lie. That's not my invention at all; that's a hard-core well-established fact.
(By the way: even if going with your unique definition of the start of the supershoes in September 2018, you still lied in 2 of the 4 cases you yourself chose. Simply outrageous.)
Will you be honest enough to admit your lies, or will you triple down and add more lies? My money is on the latter.
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