As well as he did, anyone who saw Sullivan run in high school knows he underperformed.
some of that was because Whistance was a nutbar, who pushed Kevin too much and too young (1.53 at 14yo). He needed a break after HS just to recover from what he had done (the injury in 1996 was a blessing in that regard). That Kevin never broke 1.47 for 800m shows that he was better at 1500-5k (much like Jinge), he just didn't care about the 5000m. Post-1980's Brits, that 800m was sub-par for a 800/1500 guy, so he was really just a 1500m guy, but likely clean. In the 1990's EPO era he wasn't going to beat those guys. He and Hood were better in the NCAA sit and kick type races - El G (same age as Sullivan) changed that with fast paces from a long way out.
Kevin was obviously physically mature for his age. Not everyone thinks that about Doug Whistance. I have a great deal of respect for him.
The answer is that Kessler simply got beat (narrowly). He had a clean trip on the rail, saving meters, but did not have that last gear he needed. He was not one of the two best guys (Guse and Hocker) but he was probably next best. On this day he was just a touch off and it dropped him to a close 6th. This is not unusual at all; it s racing. There will be days in the near future when Kessler does have that last gear. He'll shrug this off.
One thing to point out...coming by in 1:59.0 is never going to be ideal for HK. He's going to be better off pace. Slow fractions let a lot of guys in the race. Turned into a 350m race and he dropped 3 places.
Why would it be bad for Hobbs to hit 800m in 1:59? He has BY FAR the fastest 800m PR out of the contenders so he should be able to kick well.
When Hobbs ran 3:32, he beat Prakel by more than 3 seconds. How the hell does he lose to Prakel at USATF?
A 20 year old loses to guys who are 2-4 years older is a nightmare? I would say some need a perspective. A guy who would be a college soph ran 2:16.x 1:45.8 3"32.x 7:39.x made a final? Is a coaching disaster?
I mean he did lose to a college guy though. Even though he's a sophomore, I'd expect him to be running laps around the NCAA. He's 1.5 seconds faster than the 1500 record, has good 800 speed, and would be 5th all time in his 3rd (?) event while being the only non-4th year or older under 7:40. Plus, pro experience, if only for ~2 years.
I wouldn't call it a disaster at all, but I think Kessler is really good and should've been favored to make the team, not just the final. Hopefully we'll see some big times from him later in the season, I think they're coming.
I think you guys overestimate 800m speed carrying over to 1500m finishing speed. They’re just not related at all. Hobbs is not an exception. It’s a rule. does Jakob have the fastest 800m PR? No. does Yared have the fastest 800m PR in the US? No.
In 2016 when Centro won Rio, did he have the fastest 800m PR in the field? No.
your finishing speed has a lot of favors that play into it. It’s not just your 800m PR.
I mean he did lose to a college guy though. Even though he's a sophomore, I'd expect him to be running laps around the NCAA. He's 1.5 seconds faster than the 1500 record, has good 800 speed, and would be 5th all time in his 3rd (?) event while being the only non-4th year or older under 7:40. Plus, pro experience, if only for ~2 years.
I wouldn't call it a disaster at all, but I think Kessler is really good and should've been favored to make the team, not just the final. Hopefully we'll see some big times from him later in the season, I think they're coming.
I think you guys overestimate 800m speed carrying over to 1500m finishing speed. They’re just not related at all. Hobbs is not an exception. It’s a rule. does Jakob have the fastest 800m PR? No. does Yared have the fastest 800m PR in the US? No.
In 2016 when Centro won Rio, did he have the fastest 800m PR in the field? No.
your finishing speed has a lot of favors that play into it. It’s not just your 800m PR.
I was not correlating his 800 mark to anything other than him running it. Most know, that you need to have the strength to unleash innate quickness and turnover. I have watched the race a bunch, and even with 25-40M to go it looks like he can almost still get there, in a much faster race than his prelim, he almost ran his last 100M as fast as he did in the prelim when he had the fastest last 100M of all the heats, in this one his last 100M was 8th? The point Real Scotty was making was..that at 1:58-59, while he was well positioned, everyone was going to close off that, in his 3:32.x race he closed in 42.x and off that pace only 1-2 ran faster last 300's. There were a couple of guys who saved their last 100 for way to late, at least that wasn't the case. But no solace in that. As for some people alluding to lack of racing. For anyone, but in Hobbs' case, making a team was a focus. His training and development has to come somewhere, he is not at a point where he has years of 75 mile week background miles under him even, he ran twice, PR'ed in both by a bit. At 20 Nuguse was a 3:38.32 1:48.29 guy...Hocker much faster than that and quite frankly for his age? Better. Much. So, on we go.
I don't see the outcry for Sumner going Pro? What did he learn? That he could win from the front or back against completely over matched talent?
I think it’s fair to say the way the 800 is raced in college doesn’t hold much value for pros unlike the 1500. Hoppel is about the only guy who came to the pros as a savvy, above-average racer. Why that is I don’t know.
He's not quite there yet, but he's got a decent chance of making three Olympic teams in the next decade. I'll go out on a limb and say he'll probably medal in 2028.
At this young age, in addition to his rare talent, he's already shown tenacity, resolve, and most of all, the patience that it takes to do it.
I was not correlating his 800 mark to anything other than him running it. Most know, that you need to have the strength to unleash innate quickness and turnover. I have watched the race a bunch, and even with 25-40M to go it looks like he can almost still get there, in a much faster race than his prelim, he almost ran his last 100M as fast as he did in the prelim when he had the fastest last 100M of all the heats, in this one his last 100M was 8th? The point Real Scotty was making was..that at 1:58-59, while he was well positioned, everyone was going to close off that, in his 3:32.x race he closed in 42.x and off that pace only 1-2 ran faster last 300's. There were a couple of guys who saved their last 100 for way to late, at least that wasn't the case. But no solace in that. As for some people alluding to lack of racing. For anyone, but in Hobbs' case, making a team was a focus. His training and development has to come somewhere, he is not at a point where he has years of 75 mile week background miles under him even, he ran twice, PR'ed in both by a bit. At 20 Nuguse was a 3:38.32 1:48.29 guy...Hocker much faster than that and quite frankly for his age? Better. Much. So, on we go.
The Nuguse stuff is a tad misleading on Yared. He set those marks in early-season races (still 19). He’d already held off Grant Fisher to win a national title in the DMR at 19. He’d go on to win the 1500 title, and probably more relevant before COVID he solo’ed a 3:55 mile indoors and ran 7:46 for a win too. Probably all with the old spikes too. So while Kessler is/was superior at 20, the gap wasn’t as large as the marks may suggest based on racing opportunities, superspikes and so on.
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This running in college thing is way way over rated and stated. I think either folks are not watching College races and Invites or have no clue. The only tactical races are conf which mean nothing anymore en NCAA meet. Almost every fast time and that includes those UW milers Indoors are off of set ups, see BU etc and the like. Essentially "THOSE AMAZING Tactics? " are twice a year or season, Indoor or out. Kessler learned more this weekend and in Europe last summer than he would have in any college program , in any college season.
The race doesn't need to be slow to learn tactics on how to win/place in races.
I was not correlating his 800 mark to anything other than him running it. Most know, that you need to have the strength to unleash innate quickness and turnover. I have watched the race a bunch, and even with 25-40M to go it looks like he can almost still get there, in a much faster race than his prelim, he almost ran his last 100M as fast as he did in the prelim when he had the fastest last 100M of all the heats, in this one his last 100M was 8th? The point Real Scotty was making was..that at 1:58-59, while he was well positioned, everyone was going to close off that, in his 3:32.x race he closed in 42.x and off that pace only 1-2 ran faster last 300's. There were a couple of guys who saved their last 100 for way to late, at least that wasn't the case. But no solace in that. As for some people alluding to lack of racing. For anyone, but in Hobbs' case, making a team was a focus. His training and development has to come somewhere, he is not at a point where he has years of 75 mile week background miles under him even, he ran twice, PR'ed in both by a bit. At 20 Nuguse was a 3:38.32 1:48.29 guy...Hocker much faster than that and quite frankly for his age? Better. Much. So, on we go.
The Nuguse stuff is a tad misleading on Yared. He set those marks in early-season races (still 19). He’d already held off Grant Fisher to win a national title in the DMR at 19. He’d go on to win the 1500 title, and probably more relevant before COVID he solo’ed a 3:55 mile indoors and ran 7:46 for a win too. Probably all with the old spikes too. So while Kessler is/was superior at 20, the gap wasn’t as large as the marks may suggest based on racing opportunities, superspikes and so on.
Not trying to suggest the gap was large at all, Nuguse was 19 years and 9 months when he ran those, Kessler 20 years and 3 months with 3:32.x 3:34.x 2:16.x 1:45.80 and 7:39 . Those marks I posted for Nuguse were still Nuguses best marks until almost 22, when he ran 3:34.x once. Kessler despite his "NOT running in college" is was ahead in development by a bit.My point is..if Kessler is not much better than now or consistent by 4/25, he would be 22 then, I would be surprised and wrong.
What excuses? Not really, I don't think, I didn't say he was tired, injured, unfit or got a bad break. The only thing I alluded to and this applies to anyone and everyone , if you weren't looking to bash me , you would see it too..is that a 1:58.5-1:59 ish first 800M brings in the whole field.
And that Kessler is not nearly as far down the road in his development, also, simply a fact. Your posting name should be "douches hkmf", nice touch on that by the way.
If you are sincere ....I think he was good enough..and did not make the team on this day, you asked. You can be good enough and lose on any given day. I never used the term "lock" or even close regarding his chances. I thought Nuguse was/is clearly the best..Hocker had big game experience and after seeing his prelim, thought he would make it. I thought Kessler would and could make make it, but certainly not a lock, never thought that.
I don't see the outcry for Sumner going Pro? What did he learn? That he could win from the front or back against completely over matched talent?
I think it’s fair to say the way the 800 is raced in college doesn’t hold much value for pros unlike the 1500. Hoppel is about the only guy who came to the pros as a savvy, above-average racer. Why that is I don’t know.
Kessler ran what, 2 outdoor races this year not counting USAs? How do you learn anything from that. Compare that to Hocker’s season when he was 6th at the Olympics. How much does Jakob race?
So far Kessler going pro early has been a bust similar to Drew Hunter.
Kessler ran what, 2 outdoor races this year not counting USAs? How do you learn anything from that. Compare that to Hocker’s season when he was 6th at the Olympics. How much does Jakob race?
So far Kessler going pro early has been a bust similar to Drew Hunter.
Well that is definitely too harsh. I agree Kessler could’ve used maybe one more 1500 (a Portland meet?), but nothing egregious. Jakob hasn’t raced a ton this year actually, though they’ve all been big races. Prakel and Wynne race a lot (especially when you consider indoors), so you may credit their general overachievement at USAs for that. Those guys come in razor-sharp and typically punch above their weight.
Kessler to Hunter comps seem crazy with this season overall and the 3:32.
Kessler ran what, 2 outdoor races this year not counting USAs? How do you learn anything from that. Compare that to Hocker’s season when he was 6th at the Olympics. How much does Jakob race?
So far Kessler going pro early has been a bust similar to Drew Hunter.
Well that is definitely too harsh. I agree Kessler could’ve used maybe one more 1500 (a Portland meet?), but nothing egregious. Jakob hasn’t raced a ton this year actually, though they’ve all been big races. Prakel and Wynne race a lot (especially when you consider indoors), so you may credit their general overachievement at USAs for that. Those guys come in razor-sharp and typically punch above their weight.
Kessler to Hunter comps seem crazy with this season overall and the 3:32.
Why even bother responding to that
its a non sensical post that is not comparably correct in any sense.
The primary reason Kessler didn't qualify isn't because he's not fast enough. It's positioning. That will come with more racing. Hard to do in practice, though they could try.
its a non sensical post that is not comparably correct in any sense.
Well I do think you have to look at Teare tactically and in the last 50 lacking some juice, and Kessler the same (and unhappy with his positioning) and wonder if the two of them maybe sat on their laurels a bit too much after LA. Hocker did run the 800, but that was essentially a time trial. So I think the “race more” critique is worth responding to. The vets like Wynne/Prakel do race a ton and given that they’re overachieving it’s worth studying. They take their lumps in some of those races, but seem to be more prepared for USAs.