(As a side note: this seems to be a comparison of Sifan with Genzebe, not with Tirunesh).
But if Sifan is not the GOAT - which she refused to be - then maybe she is the COAT (C = crazy, in a good sense). When something is conceivable in theory, she doesn't say "that's too crazy in practice" but instead "fine, if it is conceivable then let's try it".
This post was edited 21 seconds after it was posted.
It's coming. In the marathon. They're unpaced, remember? Lord have mercy on anyone who tries to outkick Hellen.
Hilarious. That describes the Tokyo 5000 when Obiri furiously started pumping her arms early during the final lap. I was in hysterics because the result was inevitable. Hassan was smack behind her. Hassan's biggest problem was not to laugh. It was even more amusing when Obiri felt Hassan draw alongside and frantically pushed even more. Bye Bye.
There are different levels of kick. Obiri is trumped in raw ability by Hassan just like Hassan has dropped the 1500 because she is always out finished by Kipyegon.
For one Olympics, sure. But what if the task is to choose such a team to win as much as possible over the course of 15 years across multiple distances on the track, the roads, and cross country. I’m taking Tirunesh Dibaba.
Fair enough, and I like that you added Cross Country. I consider that a huge part of our sport even though a lot of people seem to undervalue it. I wish it counted for more in most people's opinions.
Looking at their accomplishments though, I do think Hassan has a slight advantage. Here are Dibaba's palmarès:
1 x World champion
1 x Olympic Games Silver medalist
5 x World Indoor champion
1 x World Championships Bronze medallist
2 x World Cross Country champion
14 x Diamond League meeting winner
4 x Current World Record holder - 1500m, Mile ind., 3000m ind., 5000m ind.
6 x World Records in career
Here are Hassan's palmarès:
2 x Olympic champion
2 x World champion
1 x Diamond League Final winner
1 x World Indoor champion
1 x Olympic Games Bronze medalist
2 x World Championships Bronze medalist
18 x Diamond League meeting winner
2 x Current World Record holder - Mile, 1 Hour
4 x World Records in career
BTW, I just checked both their PRs and it is funny to see how close they are! Can we have two GOATS for the women? Hassan's times are on the left, Dibaba on the right.
It is fair to say that there is no real "difference" in these PRs. Given weather and competition and tactics, any of these tiny differences amount to nothing. That said, I think it is fair to consider them the two greatest female distance runners of all time.
Is there anyone else who compares to these two women?
... just to clarify: in a way, track runners might be just too timid. E.g., in cross country skiing it is not uncommon to see world class "sprinters" (their "sprint" is comparable to 1500m track) who are simultaneously world class in the 30k/50k. And if you go back to 1956: Emil Zatopek chose to make his marathon debut in the Olympic Games, and he won gold, after having won the 5k and the 10k as well. This was arguably quite as crazy as Sifan Hassan's program at Tokyo.
It's pure doping. There is always one athlete that just dares you not to notice, like Armstrong.
Let's take a look back in time. Kipchoge was world 5k champion in 2003. His range is pretty amazing. How about K. Bekele? I believe he ran some fast 1500's as well as being double 5k 10k champion before setting world marathon record.
Hassan's progress is not that dramatic. She went from being a pure 1500 meter runner into a 5k, 10k runner under Salazar. Then she ran a 1/2. What makes her different is she moved up to the marathon while still in her prime.
Regarding Armstrong: He was not just one athlete. His entire team was doping as well as most of his main competitors. So if Hassan is doping ( I don't believe she is), then everyone around her is as well.
I like sifan, but what if she isnt doping? What does that mean? We know many of the top elite are. And this non doping skinny gal is running away from them like they are standing still (quite often)? Ive seen her run the final 600 of a 5000 at full speed while everyone else is gassed. Running 3 events in the olympics. She doesnt prep for the marathon, stops to stretch...etc....she is either doping, or by far the best we have ever seen male or female.
If someone is beating the dopers- clean (at nearly every event), I sure would expect to see it a little closer than it is most of the time. Kipyegon gives her fits but thats about it.
Just like Lance, is he really riding away from a peleoton thats all juiced? No chance.
Let's take a look back in time. Kipchoge was world 5k champion in 2003. His range is pretty amazing. How about K. Bekele? I believe he ran some fast 1500's as well as being double 5k 10k champion before setting world marathon record.
Hassan's progress is not that dramatic. She went from being a pure 1500 meter runner into a 5k, 10k runner under Salazar. Then she ran a 1/2. What makes her different is she moved up to the marathon while still in her prime.
Regarding Armstrong: He was not just one athlete. His entire team was doping as well as most of his main competitors. So if Hassan is doping ( I don't believe she is), then everyone around her is as well.
I like sifan, but what if she isnt doping? What does that mean? We know many of the top elite are. And this non doping skinny gal is running away from them like they are standing still (quite often)? Ive seen her run the final 600 of a 5000 at full speed while everyone else is gassed. Running 3 events in the olympics. She doesnt prep for the marathon, stops to stretch...etc....she is either doping, or by far the best we have ever seen male or female.
If someone is beating the dopers- clean (at nearly every event), I sure would expect to see it a little closer than it is most of the time. Kipyegon gives her fits but thats about it.
Just like Lance, is he really riding away from a peleoton thats all juiced? No chance.
The suspicion arises because she wasn’t always the way you described. In her early years she was mostly a 1500 specialist who struggled in championship races. In the 3 championships from 2015 – 2017 the best she could muster was a bronze and 2 5th places. Rather than run the last 600 at full speed we witnessed her repeatedly run out of gas in the stretch, flailing badly while Jenny Simpson blew by her on the inside.
Then everything suddenly changed when she switched coaches and starting running longer distances. In the next WC she destroyed the field in the 1500, including her nemesis, Kipyegon, while running a 5-second PR. Oh, and this was AFTER she easily won her first real 10K in record fashion. This was a double that had never been attempted and most thought was not really possible by even the greatest distance runners.
Is there nothing even the slightest bit suspicious about this? Barry Bonds also went from being just one of the best players in MLB to performing feats that defied belief. Shelby Houlihan anyone? Of course, Hassan has never failed a drug test so we have no evidence of anything.
I like sifan, but what if she isnt doping? What does that mean? We know many of the top elite are. And this non doping skinny gal is running away from them like they are standing still (quite often)? Ive seen her run the final 600 of a 5000 at full speed while everyone else is gassed. Running 3 events in the olympics. She doesnt prep for the marathon, stops to stretch...etc....she is either doping, or by far the best we have ever seen male or female.
If someone is beating the dopers- clean (at nearly every event), I sure would expect to see it a little closer than it is most of the time. Kipyegon gives her fits but thats about it.
Just like Lance, is he really riding away from a peleoton thats all juiced? No chance.
The suspicion arises because she wasn’t always the way you described. In her early years she was mostly a 1500 specialist who struggled in championship races. In the 3 championships from 2015 – 2017 the best she could muster was a bronze and 2 5th places. Rather than run the last 600 at full speed we witnessed her repeatedly run out of gas in the stretch, flailing badly while Jenny Simpson blew by her on the inside.
Then everything suddenly changed when she switched coaches and starting running longer distances. In the next WC she destroyed the field in the 1500, including her nemesis, Kipyegon, while running a 5-second PR. Oh, and this was AFTER she easily won her first real 10K in record fashion. This was a double that had never been attempted and most thought was not really possible by even the greatest distance runners.
Is there nothing even the slightest bit suspicious about this? Barry Bonds also went from being just one of the best players in MLB to performing feats that defied belief. Shelby Houlihan anyone? Of course, Hassan has never failed a drug test so we have no evidence of anything.
You've just given a pretty good breakdown of just what doping can do.
Faith Kipyegon? When has Faith ever doubled at a championship or had a major win outside the 1500m? She's phenominal at 1500m, but the range is lacking.
I like sifan, but what if she isnt doping? What does that mean? We know many of the top elite are. And this non doping skinny gal is running away from them like they are standing still (quite often)? Ive seen her run the final 600 of a 5000 at full speed while everyone else is gassed. Running 3 events in the olympics. She doesnt prep for the marathon, stops to stretch...etc....she is either doping, or by far the best we have ever seen male or female.
If someone is beating the dopers- clean (at nearly every event), I sure would expect to see it a little closer than it is most of the time. Kipyegon gives her fits but thats about it.
Just like Lance, is he really riding away from a peleoton thats all juiced? No chance.
The suspicion arises because she wasn’t always the way you described. In her early years she was mostly a 1500 specialist who struggled in championship races. In the 3 championships from 2015 – 2017 the best she could muster was a bronze and 2 5th places. Rather than run the last 600 at full speed we witnessed her repeatedly run out of gas in the stretch, flailing badly while Jenny Simpson blew by her on the inside.
Then everything suddenly changed when she switched coaches and starting running longer distances. In the next WC she destroyed the field in the 1500, including her nemesis, Kipyegon, while running a 5-second PR. Oh, and this was AFTER she easily won her first real 10K in record fashion. This was a double that had never been attempted and most thought was not really possible by even the greatest distance runners.
Is there nothing even the slightest bit suspicious about this? Barry Bonds also went from being just one of the best players in MLB to performing feats that defied belief. Shelby Houlihan anyone? Of course, Hassan has never failed a drug test so we have no evidence of anything.
Before Hassan joined Nike, she was actually kind of chesty. She must have lost 15 lbs under Salazar. Was this the result of drugs? I don't know. But the weight loss transformed her from a competitive runner into a champion. It wasn't that big a leap.
The difference between Barry Bonds pre and post steroids was so dramatic that you'd have to be blind not to see it. I'd argue the same about Houlihan. She turned into a female version of the incredible hulk.
Faith Kipyegon? When has Faith ever doubled at a championship or had a major win outside the 1500m? She's phenominal at 1500m, but the range is lacking.
Lacking you say
Faith's PRs:
800m -1.57.68
1000m-2.29.15 (2nd all time)
1500m-3.50.30 (2nd all time)
3000m-8.23.55 (From 2014)
5000m-14.31.95-(From 2015)
GTFOH, if range like this is "lacking" what exactly is range to you?
also imagine when she moves on up, as she inevitably will what they will look like given that she's said she will one day run the marathon?
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
GTFOH, if range like this is "lacking" what exactly is range to you?
also imagine when she moves on up, as she inevitably will what they will look like given that she's said she will one day run the marathon?
Her resume is "lacking" in the 10,000m, 1/2 marathon, and Marathon. When she has the "other half" of the distance running sport figured out, then she will be part of this conversation. The talent is there (obviously), but she has to have PRs before she can be ranked alongside the GOATS - Dibaba, Dibaba, Hassan.
Hassan clearly has the best range, but she has a ways to go to match Tirunesh Dibaba’s accomplishments.
Olympic + World Championships: Dibaba 8, Hassan 4
Total Olympic + World Championship medals: Dibaba 12, Hassan 7
World Cross Country Championships: Dibaba 4, Hassan 0
Hassan has surpassed Dibaba in number of world records (4-3) and has a better set of PBs, but she needs more championship wins and medals in my opinion to match Dibaba overall.
Dibaba also deserves more credit for her remarkable longevity. Dibaba medaled on the track at *four* different Olympics, and her world championship medals span from 2003 until 2017. We will see if Hassan can remain great for as long as Dibaba was.
This is a good post, but in terms of comparing them, Hassan is just on a different level. She's more than half a minute faster in the 10k, even though that was perhaps Dibaba's best event (and not necessarily Hassan's). In addition, her championship performances, like the 3:59 close in the 2019 10k or the triple in 2021, are well, well beyond what Dibaba could have done at her peak.
Say you're comparing two NCAA cross country runners. Runner A is a historic D3 stud, winning the NCAA title in all four years and never losing a race. Runner B is a D1 stud, winning two NCAA titles, but being injured, inconsistent, or just bad the other two years. I think nearly everyone would say the Runner B was greater, just because it's a totally different level of competition. There's no real question that if the two raced at their respective peaks, Runner B would win. It's plausible that B could have done what A did, training less to be more consistent and winning over lesser (but still excellent) competition; but inconceivable that A could have done what B did.
This comparison feels facile, but the chasm between Hassan's level and Dibaba's is immense (or Hassan's and almost anyone's), close to half as big as the Runner B -> Runner A gap. How can we compare the two, given that in every one of Dibaba's best performances we can be pretty confident that the Hassan of the past few years could have beaten her?
Agreed. Hassan has been competing in a much deeper field. The threats for Dibaba then were just Cheruiyot and Dafer, while Hassan has to face Kipyegon in the 1500m, Gidey in the 5k/10k andyet she still pulled off that epic triple in Tokyo. Not to mention her range. Dibaba is great, but Hassan is on another level (or from another planet)
I like sifan, but what if she isnt doping? What does that mean? We know many of the top elite are. And this non doping skinny gal is running away from them like they are standing still (quite often)? Ive seen her run the final 600 of a 5000 at full speed while everyone else is gassed. Running 3 events in the olympics. She doesnt prep for the marathon, stops to stretch...etc....she is either doping, or by far the best we have ever seen male or female.
If someone is beating the dopers- clean (at nearly every event), I sure would expect to see it a little closer than it is most of the time. Kipyegon gives her fits but thats about it.
Just like Lance, is he really riding away from a peleoton thats all juiced? No chance.
The suspicion arises because she wasn’t always the way you described. In her early years she was mostly a 1500 specialist who struggled in championship races. In the 3 championships from 2015 – 2017 the best she could muster was a bronze and 2 5th places. Rather than run the last 600 at full speed we witnessed her repeatedly run out of gas in the stretch, flailing badly while Jenny Simpson blew by her on the inside.
Then everything suddenly changed when she switched coaches and starting running longer distances. In the next WC she destroyed the field in the 1500, including her nemesis, Kipyegon, while running a 5-second PR. Oh, and this was AFTER she easily won her first real 10K in record fashion. This was a double that had never been attempted and most thought was not really possible by even the greatest distance runners.
Is there nothing even the slightest bit suspicious about this? Barry Bonds also went from being just one of the best players in MLB to performing feats that defied belief. Shelby Houlihan anyone? Of course, Hassan has never failed a drug test so we have no evidence of anything.
Hassan had never trained seriously prior to 2015. Bronze for someone who's still relatively new to the sport (at least in a completive sense) was nothing to sneeze at if you ask me.
The suspicion arises because she wasn’t always the way you described. In her early years she was mostly a 1500 specialist who struggled in championship races. In the 3 championships from 2015 – 2017 the best she could muster was a bronze and 2 5th places. Rather than run the last 600 at full speed we witnessed her repeatedly run out of gas in the stretch, flailing badly while Jenny Simpson blew by her on the inside.
Then everything suddenly changed when she switched coaches and starting running longer distances. In the next WC she destroyed the field in the 1500, including her nemesis, Kipyegon, while running a 5-second PR. Oh, and this was AFTER she easily won her first real 10K in record fashion. This was a double that had never been attempted and most thought was not really possible by even the greatest distance runners.
Is there nothing even the slightest bit suspicious about this? Barry Bonds also went from being just one of the best players in MLB to performing feats that defied belief. Shelby Houlihan anyone? Of course, Hassan has never failed a drug test so we have no evidence of anything.
You've just given a pretty good breakdown of just what doping can do.
The suspicion arises because she wasn’t always the way you described. In her early years she was mostly a 1500 specialist who struggled in championship races. In the 3 championships from 2015 – 2017 the best she could muster was a bronze and 2 5th places. Rather than run the last 600 at full speed we witnessed her repeatedly run out of gas in the stretch, flailing badly while Jenny Simpson blew by her on the inside.
Then everything suddenly changed when she switched coaches and starting running longer distances. In the next WC she destroyed the field in the 1500, including her nemesis, Kipyegon, while running a 5-second PR. Oh, and this was AFTER she easily won her first real 10K in record fashion. This was a double that had never been attempted and most thought was not really possible by even the greatest distance runners.
Is there nothing even the slightest bit suspicious about this? Barry Bonds also went from being just one of the best players in MLB to performing feats that defied belief. Shelby Houlihan anyone? Of course, Hassan has never failed a drug test so we have no evidence of anything.
Hassan may well be on PEDs, but picking championship results only isn't conclusive. Just look at Ron Clarke who in the 60s was uncontestedly the world's best 10'000 runner but finished only 3rd and 5th in the Olympic Games. And in the DL, Hassan beat Simpson in most (not all) cases, just that in Championship finals she regularly managed to get her race tactics wrong. This proves that she wasn't good at race tactics, but is no evidence for or against anything else.
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