Male-born hurdler 4th in Girls Massachusetts Indoor State Meet

I’m not arguing for that. I am still able to compete, I just don’t have any chance of winning a gold medal. I am in favor in as many people running and competing as possible, but I am not in favor of creating a system of “fairness” where everyone gets to win.

I’m happy there are equal opportunities for women to compete in sports. I have a daughter, and she loves to run, and I want her to continue with it as well. But I don’t kid myself and think that one day she will run a 12:40 5K.

Pathetic. Just Pathetic. Unfair. The end of women's sport.

I wouldn't consider opposing someone born a male racing against women as transphobic. I don't think most LR posters give a crap if a man wants to identify as a woman (or whatever they care to be), we don't want anyone born a man in women's sports. Quite a bit of entitlement coming from the transgender side of this dispute.

The analogy is youth sports. There is a female category in running. There is a U20 category. There are youth age groups. Why not allow a man to compete in a U14 category for example?

You mean, let an adult man who 'identifies' as a child race against 14 year olds? Kinda what's happening with womens sports.

This, however, is nonsensical. To believe this you have to believe that, if only society had been more gender-equal when sports were really beginning to get organized in the modern sense in the late 19th to early 20th centuries, that the effect would be almost no women in sports today, because they would have just thrown open every league to all participants regardless of gender, the result being almost no women could make the cut.

The left will use this to push for “transage” adults being able to f*ck children

Dude you are a horrible debater. Are you even trying or just trolling? your arguments have been slapped down so many times it's dizzying. there's absolutely no logic to your juvenile attempts to make a point.

No one said they want a system "where everyone gets to win". But yes they did say they want one of "fairness". And you really have a problem with that? So, you're sayng-

* Just let athletes use performance enhancing drugs if they want to even if it gives them an unfair advantage against those that don't want to harm their health?

* Just let some bicyclists use motors because.... talent and hard work are also "unfair" to less talented/less dedicated athletes, so.... what's the difference?

* let's let runners cut the course in cross country because, " not everyone can win", and what's fair really anyway??

* let's let adults compete against kids. Kids need to learn that life is unfair!

No rules, right? Nonsense.

Women sport only exists because women compete against women and not men. Men on average have a biological advantage over women in sports similar to the unfair advantages I list above. Now if you really want to do away with that...... you are going to have some angry women against you.

[ and the fact that your daughter will never run a 12:40 5k has absolutely nothing to do with the debate over what is fair in sports and specifically women's sports. What a bizarre/ asinine comment]

I truly don't care about PEDs. Whatever.

I draw the line at foreign objects (motors), running the full race distance (cutting the course), and impeding another runner. Again, the sport is simple. Get to the line first. Jump higher. Throw farther.

Are you filling out an NCAA bracket this year? Are you filling out a women's one too? If not, I bet you'll have a lot of "angry women against you." Or maybe you won't because most people pay more attention to men's sports than women's sports.

You and another poster keep bringing up age. That shows that you do not understand the issue. A person can legally change their gender. I have students who have done it this year. You can get your gender changed on your driver's license. There is a precedent for it. If you allow someone to be a man or a woman in their school, workplace, driving a car, voting, etc., why won't you allow that person to be a man or a woman when they run a race? I am consistent.

You cannot go to the DMV and change your age. You can't run for President when you're 26. Age is not a social construct the way that gender is. If you can't grasp that simple concept about this issue, then I don't think you are qualified to debate about the sporting issue.

Women's sports will be just fine even if transwomen compete. Perhaps they will even be better. But they won't just cease to be. If that's what you're worried about, I would say just relax and stop worrying. You don't need to believe everything you hear from Tucker Carlson.

You’re totally right that women’s professional sports will be destroyed because of this confusion but I think that’s an inevitable thing. Women’s sports can only really exist after culture of the sexual revolution which allows women more “bodily autonomy” to pursue sports rather than be in marriages and before the postmodernism we have right now where we say anything goes because we can’t know anything (including what a women is). This balance just isn’t sustainable long term because they are contradictory. Tbh trans advocates have a more logically coherent view on this issue than the libertarian normies on letsrun because if we as a society concede that men can really be women, it makes no logical sense to not include men who pretend they are women in women’s spaces. The only real way to fight this is to admit what everyone knows to be true, transgenderism is false and men and women are different. If we accept that however, then we would go down a rabbit whole where we realize that the sexual revolution was a massive mistake and then we might reconsider if we even want professional women’s sports in the first place.

TLDR: Women’s sports are doomed either in the present because of the sophistry of postmodernism or the future if we (hopefully) RETVRN to traditional gender roles

You can legally change your gender, you're right that it's different than changing age. I support people legally changing their gender.

But you can't legally change the fact that people born boys go through a different type of puberty as a teen that changes their bodies compared to women. This influences sports performance in a significant way. Yes there are unique edge cases for intersex and such.

These things could be handled on a case by case basis if a child takes puberty blockers or whatever but it would be illegal to share that sort of info with other competitors. Therefore until science shows complete fairness, it's probably most fair for trans kids to stay on the jv or practice squad.

"We created a second category because the best people at sports were all biologically male"

No, that isn't what happened! Sports organizations didn't want women in sports so separate women's associations were founded.

You can't revise history to fit your argument.

Case by case is the only solution. I believe in strict guidelines before transgender people are allowed to compete as equals in the women's category. If they don't meet the guidelines, they can be allowed to compete in women's sports but should be scored separately. In the case of the hurdler mentioned above, that person would get fourth place and the person in fifth place would get scored as fourth place. Easy to figure out and easy to understand. For team sports, I would ban them from varsity post-season playoffs unless they meet the guidelines.

The backlash of cutting all trans people out of women's sports is an unfair solution. Many of them don't belong in men's sports, so if you kick them out of women's sports, they have no place to go.

I agree with your take on postmodernism, but your argument that the only solution is to return to traditional gender roles is not compelling. I believe it is possible to fight against postmodern transhumanism without a return to tradition; in fact, it's impossible to turn back time, culturally or otherwise.

I do think we have to acknowledge sex differences and create a social system that supports the sometimes different talents of men and women (average differences) while maximizing personal freedom.

Those feminists who argued that women could only be free once they were liberated from childbearing and rearing were wrong. This will lead to the annihilation of women. This is what "trans" is currently doing. The capacity to bear children and rear children is the source of female power, whether women choose to have children or not. This capacity is economically devalued in a liberal system (this is a tricky problem to solve), even while poor women's bodies are commodified by the rich for this very capacity (surrogacy, egg donation, nannys).

You are trying to be too fair.

It should not be handled on a case by case basis. BIological males competing in women's sports should be outlawed in competitive sports. A trans woman is not biogically female.

Is it fair if Usain Bolt - who is the greatest sprinter in history - was actually the greatest women's sprinter in history? That seems what you are implying. As long at they get no unfair advantage. Not it would not be fair. Then Elaine Thompson and SAFP aren't champions - they are also rans. It hurts females and elevates males (as whoever finished behind Bolt in the men's races is now the champion)

PS. You support people legally changing their gender. I don't even know why we ask about gender. It's antiquated. Let people do whatever they hell they want in their private lives - wear dresses, pants, makeup no makeup, sleep with a man, two men, two women, etc. In my mind, the govt or airlines shouldn't even ask about gender - they maybe should ask about your sex, but I'd rather it just list height and weight with no gender/sex than to list gender.

Even the World Helath Organization admits gender is a social construct. Here is their definition.

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

That happened in swimming. She had gone through a masectomy and everything and opted to swim with females because she had a better chance. Brutal.

This is so out of hand. Women’s sports will never be believable. The NCAA should’ve never allowed this in swimming and it only give attention to something that should not be a reality

Out of hand? In our sport, there are a couple 20:00 for 5K HS transgender athletes, not a single competitive MTF runner in college sports and none competing in USATF or IAAF.

I still believe in Tuohy and other female distance runners.