all your debates remained trapped in June 12 2021.
When all we had was the press conference to go off of.
Since then we've learned so many things about little Shelby and about Nandrolone, how it can be taken, why it is taken, and how it can be concealed.
Not even close. Much of my "debate" is based squarely on the details found in the CAS decision, interpreted in the context of the WADA Code and applicable TD, and the testimony of the experts for both Houlihan and the AIU, supplemented by a half dozen or so nandrolone studies and publications, and have very little to do with the initial press conference.
Since you want a list, I'll gladly provide a list of females since 2000 (Sydney Olympics) who have been caught specifically using Nandrolone. Go ahead and verify these in case I missed any.
I'm still convinced you're some elaborate troll from /fit/ who thinks getting people riled up about Shelby is hilarious, but the Shelby simps really are a different breed from what I've seen over the last year or so. You have no idea what you're talking about, and just from your last response shows you don't have the capabilities to do coherent research, and instead rely on messily put-together science tidbits and semantics that barely relate to the actual topic at hand.
Elite sports aren't healthy, nor are they clean, but I'm not gonna sit here and shame athletes for microdosing the same stuff their competition is. The thing is, some people like me don't hate Shelby because she "cheated", rather because she blatantly grifted money from innocent fans and continues to use her image as a previous professional runner to emotionally manipulate a high school boy. We can agree that Shelby did nothing wrong to an extent, but the only difference is that you refuse to believe she took one of the most common forms of recovery/general muscle-building PED's since it became synthesized.
Also dw about the anonymous part. You'll know who I am someday. Just not right now.
Since you want a list, I'll gladly provide a list of females since 2000 (Sydney Olympics) who have been caught specifically using Nandrolone. Go ahead and verify these in case I missed any.
I'm still convinced you're some elaborate troll from /fit/ who thinks getting people riled up about Shelby is hilarious, but the Shelby simps really are a different breed from what I've seen over the last year or so. You have no idea what you're talking about, and just from your last response shows you don't have the capabilities to do coherent research, and instead rely on messily put-together science tidbits and semantics that barely relate to the actual topic at hand.
Elite sports aren't healthy, nor are they clean, but I'm not gonna sit here and shame athletes for microdosing the same stuff their competition is. The thing is, some people like me don't hate Shelby because she "cheated", rather because she blatantly grifted money from innocent fans and continues to use her image as a previous professional runner to emotionally manipulate a high school boy. We can agree that Shelby did nothing wrong to an extent, but the only difference is that you refuse to believe she took one of the most common forms of recovery/general muscle-building PED's since it became synthesized.
Also dw about the anonymous part. You'll know who I am someday. Just not right now.
I actually asked who took it "on purpose". This would exclude accidental contamination from supplements or medication, and of course ingestion of nandrolone by boar. That list looks like a list of unsophisticated nobodies, and not one of the star athletes on Nike's remaining flagship USA team in 2020 setting national records. Nandrolone has long been avoided due to its ease of detection. If I know that, surely Nike would too.
I'm not really all that concerned by what convinces you, nor your assessement of my research skills, nor who you are now, or someday. Some of these messily put-together science tidbits I rely on come straight from the AIU expert Prof. Ayotte herself, and all of them are not that difficult to understand. I know what was proved, and what was not proved, and what the CAS found with basis, and without basis. If you have any relevant facts that can be reliably connected to Houlihan, that would be interest me, but from your posts, I'm guessing you don't.
The one and only way she can make the sport better is to tell the truth. What did she take, who provided it to her, and for how long has she been doing it. That's the only way. No one wants to take mental skills advice from a runner who cheated her way up the ladder.
Here's another summary.
Maybe she already told the truth, but was simply unable to prove that a rarely occurring event happened to her, lacking the necessary evidence. While it is unlikely to happen to any specific athlete, like winning the lotto or getting struck by lightning, it is likely to happen to someone somewhere, given enough opportunities and time, also like winning the lotto or getting struck by lightning. If she won the lotto, but destroyed 2/3rds of the ticket and threw the rest away -- how can she prove it one month later?
Recall the "expert" at the trial conceded that intact boars can pass by USDA inspectors, using his figure, some figure less than 12,000 boars per year in the USA, either unnoticed, or based on a sniff test, and conceded that boars ate more soy during the pandemic, which would easily lead to both the amount and the pseudo-endogenous CIR test results found in Shelby's sample.
A positive result would have been more likely than the expert conceded, during supply issues during the pandemic, given shortages of corn, pigs, USDA inspectors, and delays in slaughter for medically castrated boars, etc. Given enough opportunites, it is only a matter of time before some athlete somewhere tests positive for ingestion of nandrolone from pork, and that likelihood only increased during the pandemic.
While her defense focused mainly on pork, another rarely occurring source is a bad batch of contaminated vitamins or supplements. This is similarly hard to prove, if you have consumed that batch before being put on notice. Her testing of the vitamins and supplements she did have were all negative, so she couldn't argue that possibility at the CAS without such evidence. But like pork, this also remains a possibility she could neither prove, nor rule out.
The problem for any athlete who tests positive for nandrolone from eating pork in the USA, or alternatively from a contaminated supplement, is that it is a rare event, and difficult to prove it happened to them, when put on notice one month after the fact while lacking any of the potential sources. Under a principle of "strict liability", it is an uphill battle, with a ticking clock for athletes who want to qualify for the Olympics.
The other problem for any accused athlete is that, since 2015, intent is presumed, and unless the athlete can succeed in solving the first problem, the default finding will be an intentional violation leading to a 4-year ban. Under WADA rules, the anti-doping organization does not have to prove intent, and does not have to prove other conjectured rarely occuring alternatives, i.e. pseudo-endogenous supplements that can be purchased through Amazon, but has the luxury of presumption of intentional doping.
The one and only way she can make the sport better is to tell the truth. What did she take, who provided it to her, and for how long has she been doing it. That's the only way. No one wants to take mental skills advice from a runner who cheated her way up the ladder.
Here's another summary.
Maybe she already told the truth, but was simply unable to prove that a rarely occurring event happened to her, lacking the necessary evidence. While it is unlikely to happen to any specific athlete, like winning the lotto or getting struck by lightning, it is likely to happen to someone somewhere, given enough opportunities and time, also like winning the lotto or getting struck by lightning. If she won the lotto, but destroyed 2/3rds of the ticket and threw the rest away -- how can she prove it one month later?
Recall the "expert" at the trial conceded that intact boars can pass by USDA inspectors, using his figure, some figure less than 12,000 boars per year in the USA, either unnoticed, or based on a sniff test, and conceded that boars ate more soy during the pandemic, which would easily lead to both the amount and the pseudo-endogenous CIR test results found in Shelby's sample.
A positive result would have been more likely than the expert conceded, during supply issues during the pandemic, given shortages of corn, pigs, USDA inspectors, and delays in slaughter for medically castrated boars, etc. Given enough opportunites, it is only a matter of time before some athlete somewhere tests positive for ingestion of nandrolone from pork, and that likelihood only increased during the pandemic.
While her defense focused mainly on pork, another rarely occurring source is a bad batch of contaminated vitamins or supplements. This is similarly hard to prove, if you have consumed that batch before being put on notice. Her testing of the vitamins and supplements she did have were all negative, so she couldn't argue that possibility at the CAS without such evidence. But like pork, this also remains a possibility she could neither prove, nor rule out.
The problem for any athlete who tests positive for nandrolone from eating pork in the USA, or alternatively from a contaminated supplement, is that it is a rare event, and difficult to prove it happened to them, when put on notice one month after the fact while lacking any of the potential sources. Under a principle of "strict liability", it is an uphill battle, with a ticking clock for athletes who want to qualify for the Olympics.
The other problem for any accused athlete is that, since 2015, intent is presumed, and unless the athlete can succeed in solving the first problem, the default finding will be an intentional violation leading to a 4-year ban. Under WADA rules, the anti-doping organization does not have to prove intent, and does not have to prove other conjectured rarely occuring alternatives, i.e. pseudo-endogenous supplements that can be purchased through Amazon, but has the luxury of presumption of intentional doping.
Serious question. What’s it like living in this fantasy world you’ve built for yourself?
Serious question. What’s it like living in this fantasy world you’ve built for yourself?
Serious question from a space pirate in a galaxy far far away asking about my fantasy world?
In the real world, after a lengthy CAS hearing, the source of the nandrolone was not established and intent was presumed. All this talk about intentional doping with nandrolone pre-cursors (with or without "Test and/or other agents like EPO, SARMS, etc") is described by that same reality of not being established.
Since you want a list, I'll gladly provide a list of females since 2000 (Sydney Olympics) who have been caught specifically using Nandrolone. Go ahead and verify these in case I missed any.
I'm still convinced you're some elaborate troll from /fit/ who thinks getting people riled up about Shelby is hilarious, but the Shelby simps really are a different breed from what I've seen over the last year or so. You have no idea what you're talking about, and just from your last response shows you don't have the capabilities to do coherent research, and instead rely on messily put-together science tidbits and semantics that barely relate to the actual topic at hand.
Elite sports aren't healthy, nor are they clean, but I'm not gonna sit here and shame athletes for microdosing the same stuff their competition is. The thing is, some people like me don't hate Shelby because she "cheated", rather because she blatantly grifted money from innocent fans and continues to use her image as a previous professional runner to emotionally manipulate a high school boy. We can agree that Shelby did nothing wrong to an extent, but the only difference is that you refuse to believe she took one of the most common forms of recovery/general muscle-building PED's since it became synthesized.
Also dw about the anonymous part. You'll know who I am someday. Just not right now.
I actually asked who took it "on purpose". This would exclude accidental contamination from supplements or medication, and of course ingestion of nandrolone by boar. That list looks like a list of unsophisticated nobodies, and not one of the star athletes on Nike's remaining flagship USA team in 2020 setting national records. Nandrolone has long been avoided due to its ease of detection. If I know that, surely Nike would too.
I'm not really all that concerned by what convinces you, nor your assessement of my research skills, nor who you are now, or someday. Some of these messily put-together science tidbits I rely on come straight from the AIU expert Prof. Ayotte herself, and all of them are not that difficult to understand. I know what was proved, and what was not proved, and what the CAS found with basis, and without basis. If you have any relevant facts that can be reliably connected to Houlihan, that would be interest me, but from your posts, I'm guessing you don't.
I do not think its a good argument that "she was on a flagship USA team" and therefore didn't take nandrolone on purpose. Further you state the above people are a list of nobodies. I mean.. Do you think that strengthens Shelbys case?
The argument that people didn't take it "on purpose" can then be used for any positive drugstests.."Ease of detection", well she and her coach argued that they never heard of nandrolone when she tested positive??
I do not think its a good argument that "she was on a flagship USA team" and therefore didn't take nandrolone on purpose. Further you state the above people are a list of nobodies. I mean.. Do you think that strengthens Shelbys case?
The argument that people didn't take it "on purpose" can then be used for any positive drugstests.."Ease of detection", well she and her coach argued that they never heard of nandrolone when she tested positive??
Let me remind everyone that there is no good argument that she took nandrolone on purpose. It started out as a presumption allowed by WADA for the limited purpose of deciding the length of sanctions, and today it is still just a presumption.
As I am not subject to WADA's constraints, obligations, or bias, I can start out with a different set of presumptions that most Olympic and Championship level athletes are clean and want to compete clean.
If you are arguing that Nike sophistication is not behind it, then I would gladly listen to any suggestion that Nike and Nike's money and Nike's lawyers and Nike's doctors probably have nothing to do with any doping by their sponsored athletes -- probably not since the days of Athletics West, and probably not even then.
If you become familiar with the WADA Code, the argument that she didn't take it on purpose in fact can be used for all positive drug tests for non-specified drugs, when applying for the partial relief under Articles 10.2 and 10.5 and 10.6 of the WADA Code.
But it is especially relevant for drugs can enter your system through the USDA approved foods you eat that are normally available to the general American public.
The strongest argument that this is a one time accidental and unknowing ingestion is the one time finding itself of the "low" 5.x ng/ml in December, in the off-season. Note "low" comes directly from WADA, calling values under 10 ng/ml "the low ng/mL range".
Since the Sydney Olympics, and all the discussion of nandrolone at that time, for a number of reasons I find it is simply not credible that distance running athletes would ingest low amounts of nandrolone today on purpose, except for perhaps Russia, where they were doing everything under state orders, and places like Kenya, where rogue athletes find opportunistic but ignorant and unsophisticated pharmacists or doctors.
I find whether she and her coach heard of nandrolone is not really relevant one way or the other. And I find it highly credible that even if they had heard of it, they would probably just remember "steroids", or maybe "deca".
Rekrunner if you are trying to defend Shelby, you are making things worse.
you are her only defender. This board was dead in the water before you came on and started spewing poor arguments in her defense. That only motivates people to come back on these boards and write more negative (but accurate) things about Shelby. You are inciting more anger and “mean” comments about her.
Shelby can’t even defend herself properly. She says her progression makes sense, but she was the one of the only ones who progressed that rapidly after several years of being pro. It made no sense. What an obvious Cheater.
im glad she was caught, and I’m glad that as luck would have it she misses not one but two Olympics and will be well past her prime so she can’t destroy the sport more than she’s already done.
Im disappointed she’s pursuing a sports psych degree. That has Darren treasure written all over it. She should get a job in another field and leave this sport alone.
Guessing they didn't mention how she followed the team to altitude again this year.
What a strange podcast.
I have a feeling anyone interviewing Shelbo800 (she has that handle from HS and loves it) is afraid to ask tough questions for fear of losing access. The running media world is a very small place.
I could see Ali on the Run or the Hurdle podcast lady interviewing her. I'd tune in!
Aside from the burrito in the room, she'd be someone interesting to talk to and get her thoughts on a lot of things. No sarcasm here.
Wait, she’s still not working at all? I guess she’ll try and ride this thing out for the full ban and hope her boyfriend feels generous.
I'm curious if anyone here would hire a convicted doper at their company. I know it has happened, as people are allowed to move on and make a living. Just wondering if any of you personally would.
I know someone who was busted, claiming accidental use via supplements, and then suspended for a full season of college football (Ivy League). Later was named captain of his team, moved onto an Ivy MBA, doing well ever since. Didn't seem to slow his stride in life at all.
The ivy connections certainly help him overcome issues average peeps would have faced, plus if he was rock-solid in his networking, he would never have to use applicant tracking systems that would have filtered that out or other gatekeepers. He would have gotten a handshake and the job and then "formally" applied, knowing he had verbal on the backend...that is probably how he got it despite the bust.
Hard to say. Yes, she got caught, but she did manage to break records and make 6 figures for a couple of years, and gets to keep it all. I bet it was at least financially a net plus (especially if she soon gets a real job).
And honestly, running is an obscure enough sport where she could settle into a "normal" life and be relatively anonymous. Especially if she stopped going by Shelby Houlihan -- got married, used a variant of her real first name, or straight up changed her name, whatever. If she got an office job and never mentioned she was an Olympian most people wouldn't think to look into her (and using a different/variant name would hide her past from the Googlers and facebook stalkers).
But she doesn't strike me as the type to lay low, does she? :D
Employers could still search for strings of text or other things in her resume or various profiles to dig on her. And even if she changed her name they could cross-reference her address and ask her to clarify that. They just can't ask how old she is, if she's married, if she has kids, etc. because that would violate discrimination laws.
Rekrunner if you are trying to defend Shelby, you are making things worse.
you are her only defender. This board was dead in the water before you came on and started spewing poor arguments in her defense. That only motivates people to come back on these boards and write more negative (but accurate) things about Shelby. You are inciting more anger and “mean” comments about her.
Shelby can’t even defend herself properly. She says her progression makes sense, but she was the one of the only ones who progressed that rapidly after several years of being pro. It made no sense. What an obvious Cheater.
im glad she was caught, and I’m glad that as luck would have it she misses not one but two Olympics and will be well past her prime so she can’t destroy the sport more than she’s already done.
Im disappointed she’s pursuing a sports psych degree. That has Darren treasure written all over it. She should get a job in another field and leave this sport alone.
Shelbo is being very cage-y in her podcast. LOL. The first National Treasure was the best one too.
This guy has had her on TWICE already. He seems to dance around questions like Beyonce.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.