We’re talking about a dude who ran 2:11.96 (with suicidal pacing) 48 hours after winning the Van Damme meet in 3:29.19. Why does he need to have been part of a secretive group for that to be suspicious?
And if you want to talk about association with sketchy individuals, Noah was teammates with Daniel Komen lol. I’m surprised you think he was more likely clean than dirty.
So another guy people think was dirty because he ran fast…Again if you want to make the exercise just who runs too fast for your liking then that is fine. Most of the top guys however have shadier factors than that.
JWH already gave several reasons why Ngeny is as suspicious as any of his contemporaries, but you reduced his entire argument to “Ngeny’s performances were too good to be true” and then dismissed it. I don’t understand why you seem to think being part of a secretive training group or having ties to sketchy/shady individuals is a more valid reason for suspicion.
Martti Olavi Vainio (born 30 December 1950) is a Finnish former long-distance runner. In Finland he is recognized as the last of the great runners of the famous "V-line", the previous ones being Juha Väätäinen, Lasse Virén, a...
I love this line. I have no idea what language it is originally from or even what it means (stand on the shoulders of giants" maybe?), but yes, this is a great line!
Legitimate question for those who know the history of the sport better than me. When was EPO explicitly banned? New supplements pop up all the time that are at first legal and then later studied more and banned. Colostrum for example is a relatively new supplement that WADA has not banned but they are investigating as it can increase growth hormone. I guess my point is that of course when something is explicitly banned and you take it anyway you are a cheater and should be punished. If it was taken in good faith before being banned is that person really a cheater or bad person? (assuming they stop once it becomes it is banned). Of course those performances are still enhanced, but maybe not maliciously enhanced if that makes any sense. (Probably TLDR I know)
Legitimate question for those who know the history of the sport better than me. When was EPO explicitly banned? New supplements pop up all the time that are at first legal and then later studied more and banned. Colostrum for example is a relatively new supplement that WADA has not banned but they are investigating as it can increase growth hormone. I guess my point is that of course when something is explicitly banned and you take it anyway you are a cheater and should be punished. If it was taken in good faith before being banned is that person really a cheater or bad person? (assuming they stop once it becomes it is banned). Of course those performances are still enhanced, but maybe not maliciously enhanced if that makes any sense. (Probably TLDR I know)
Good question. Testosterone was banned 1975, but tests stated around 1984.
From wikipedia, of 1980 OG, A member of the IOC Medical Commission, Manfred Donike, privately ran additional tests with a new technique for identifying abnormal levels of testosterone by measuring its ratio to epitestosterone in urine. Twenty percent of the specimens he tested, including those from sixteen gold medalists would have resulted in disciplinary proceedings had the tests been official.
EPO 2004 banned by WADA, IOC earlier.
"Until 1986, the infusion of blood was not prohibited in sport but considered unethical. Erythropoietin was prohibited by the International Olympic Committee's Medical Commission in 1990".
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Thanks for the info! So since El G’s record was set outside of the Olympics before 2004 it may not have been “technically banned” but still known to be unethical and performance enhancing. Assuming he was on EPO (which seems likely) he at least should have known it was a major grey area at best.
Thanks for the info! So since El G’s record was set outside of the Olympics before 2004 it may not have been “technically banned” but still known to be unethical and performance enhancing. Assuming he was on EPO (which seems likely) he at least should have known it was a major grey area at best.
yes, EPO same as testosterone. Many knew it was illegal, but many would have taken it as long as there was no test to catch you.
It's Nick Willis. He was probably helped by racing against PED users though. Better competition equates to faster results. If they were all clean then someone with a faster result could perhaps beat Willis'clean time.
Thanks for the info! So since El G’s record was set outside of the Olympics before 2004 it may not have been “technically banned” but still known to be unethical and performance enhancing. Assuming he was on EPO (which seems likely) he at least should have known it was a major grey area at best.
Nonetheless, I wouldn't consider any race run on EPO to be the "clean" record because today's runners can't access the same medications. It makes the historical playing field very uneven. Plus the core of this question is what can an athlete run without external, medical intervention.
This is nutty. Does that mean John Walker and Filbert Bayi were both doping when they ran 3:32 in 1974?
Why would it be nutty to think that the stars were doping in 1974? When do you think doping started?
Know thy history.
Historical Timeline - Drug Use in Sports - ProCon.org
Forget the Walker/Bayi question for a moment. When I said “This is nutty” it was in response to the previous poster’s contention that the human limit is 3:34-35. That would mean that every single one of the 264 men who’ve run 3:33.99 or better doped to do so - that is nutty, regardless of when people first started using PEDs. It does seem unlikely to me though that Bayi and Walker, from Tanzania and New Zealand respectively, were doping in 1974 in order to run times that 137/143 men have bettered since.
The degree of “logic” involved in concluding that 3:34-35 is the human limit must amount to “Well, I guess I can imagine running that fast, but any faster must be impossible”—and yet the poster said anyone who disagrees doesn’t understand running and physiology. Stupid.
Thanks for the info! So since El G’s record was set outside of the Olympics before 2004 it may not have been “technically banned” but still known to be unethical and performance enhancing. Assuming he was on EPO (which seems likely) he at least should have known it was a major grey area at best.
Nonetheless, I wouldn't consider any race run on EPO to be the "clean" record because today's runners can't access the same medications. It makes the historical playing field very uneven. Plus the core of this question is what can an athlete run without external, medical intervention.
I agree and mentioned it was performance enhancing. More just personally curious as to the timelines of legality. Good thread by the way! Makes for some interesting discussion.
JWH already gave several reasons why Ngeny is as suspicious as any of his contemporaries, but you reduced his entire argument to “Ngeny’s performances were too good to be true” and then dismissed it. I don’t understand why you seem to think being part of a secretive training group or having ties to sketchy/shady individuals is a more valid reason for suspicion.
I went over the 800 thing… Are we gonna act like 3.5 seconds in improvement at 1500 is the be-all, end-all for a guy who was a clear stud by 1998 and then gets dragged in the fastest mile of all time? I think the reasons given again are this guy is too good to be clean. I’d rather hear this guys coach was accused of doping (Kada->Driouch), then there’s quite a bit of Morceli innuendo with his health issues. Spain and Morocco notorious state program…go on down the line with a lot of these guys.
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