If you saw their last big workout before Arcadia (re: HDRunners youtube channel), you would have seen their lead guy struggling a bit in the workouts enough that he hung back in one of the reps. His brother, Aaron, was admitting in the recovery that he wasn't feeling great. I got the sense that specific workout toasted them for this race. It takes 2 weeks or more to gain benefits from a workout. I wonder if they should have tapered better for this particular race.
Also, I don't get the Young brother's racing. When Leo does well, Lex is further back or vice versa. They don't seem to find the rhythm in the same race.
In a field that huge, they had to take it out hard to stay out of trouble. A nice, even 64 would have left them back in tenth or twelfth with lots of guys to pass. 61 is fast but not crazy fast. Hate to say the race was "mildly disappointing" given it was a top 3 or 4 performance of all time, but thought sub-8:30 was pretty likely. It was a touch warm last night. Hope they get another serious shot at the distance soon. Really wanting to see one or more of them go significantly under 4. Colin could pop at 3:55 at Pre.
A few thoughts after re-watching the race. Colin and Lex just ran the two fastest 3200's in Arcadia history. Both of their performances land in the all-time US top 10 3200/2mile list. Lex dropping his PR from 8:43 to 8:35 is an amazing improvement at that level. Hard to be disappointed with that. I thought Lex ran an outstanding race, pushing the pace and never backed down to Colin. Colin looked in control the whole way.
I'm sure all the hype on this race may have contributed to extra pre-race nerves and too fast first lap; hard to say but wouldn't be surprised. The first mile didn't go as quickly (4:18) as many of us thought, so that put paid to any sub 8:30 attempt. I thought Aaron had a shot at sub 8:40, given his 8:01 indoor 3000 and recent fitness, but it's hard to argue with a 16yo junior running 8:48 in his first big 3200. He was able to drag Bergen, Caudillo, Puffer, Maiorano and Sgouros to big sub 8:50 PRs by not letting off the gas. The post race pic of all the guys collapsed on the ground at the finish area is a classic; the Arcadia 3200 always brings out maximum effort.
Hearing that Leo was coming off an illness certainly explains his performance. Appleford's 8:52 and Doshi's 9:02 were nice PRs.
The NP top 6 now have 3200 PR's of 8:33, 8:35, 8:39, 8:48, 8:52 and 9:02. Unprecedented!
All the talk of that difficult 3 x (1200, 400) workout. Looking at their videos, it was run 11 days before Arcadia (3/29), not this past week. Maybe it was too much; I don't know. But a learning experience for them as they adjust what works best for this talented group.
The Young family records are ridiculous. Nico's 8:40.0 now places him 3rd in the family for HS 3200 PRs....Crazy
Yeah definitely a great race to watch, especially with Lex and Colin switching off but pacing was really bad. Wonder what they could do with a pacer. Excited to see the splits but going in 60 was pretty foolish. Really wondering what happened to Leo and his 9:02
They just ran how they’ve been training. If you look at the video of 3 x 1200 and 3 x 400. They ran the first lap of the 1200’s in. 60-61 then settled in. So they race like they train.
On another thread a poster posted Leo has been sick.
Agreed. I don’t believe in running race pace for workouts. Leave it for the race. Build strength and speed all year around.
Uhhh??? What???
How do you expect to run a race targeting a time without having experienced the actual pace? That is the purpose of training, running intervals at varying distances (200's/400's/800's/etc....) with varying rest so you can stress the body and teach it to adapt to the target pace. It's a process that takes time and is adjusted accordingly to the athlete's current fitness level. You wouldn't run 4:00 min pace workouts in the fall if your target peak is June. It's a progression which is built upon over the course of a season. A good coach combined with a talented athlete can put together a program which includes multiple peaks throughout the year in which they're touching target time goals in training and racing. The only downside is that you need to be very careful so as not to try and peak too many times during a season. A huge factor is the mental side, especially with a young athlete, you can only go to the well so many times before burning out and needing a break.
I noticed the same thing in terms of that first 100m or so being very chaotic for both of the Young brothers, in addition of course to a bunch of the other boys in the field we aren't talking about. Ultimately too many guys on the starting line and that's Rich G's fault.
If C. Sahlman was in a race like the one LV ran 8:29 in, all signs point towards Colin running significantly faster than he did tonight, but not due to the pacing or too many people being on the track as that was never an issue for Colin.
People need to understand that racing your teammates is not the same as racing against guys from other teams. Ultimately this turned into two teammates doing a TT together. It's just not the same, especially when Colin knows he's gonna beat Lex. Put him in a race where he's got real competition and you'll get a different result.
Also, Leo led the pack through in 61.1. Just because Tim said it was a 60.8 while announcing doesn't mean that's what it actually was.
Colin went through at 61.5 first lap then 67.2 second lap which is not atypical at all in a race won in 8:34 that doesn't have a rabbit. Colin also paced that first lap a bit better and looked like a real pro out there being super relaxed in 5th place the majority of the first lap.
Nah, pacing and an overcrowded track made a way bigger difference than "real competition". He still got pushed to the line, but LV's race had perfect pacing (mile in 4:14), and he didn't need to worry about positioning, he just went to the back of the pack and held on as long as he could.
Going through in 61.1 as opposed to 60.8 is hardly a difference tbh, the more important numbers are 100 in 13.x and 200 in well under 30. Anyone who's ever down it knows how big of a mistake it is to go through 100 4 seconds faster than goal pace.
And can you point out to me some typical races that are won in 8:34? Afaik, there's only been 3-4 if you include conversions. What, generously, Kessler, Fernandez, Sahlman, Nelson, and Lindgren if you convert to an outdoor track? I don't think any of those went out in 61/67 or anything close to that.
The NP top 6 now have 3200 PR's of 8:33, 8:35, 8:39, 8:48, 8:52 and 9:02. Unprecedented!
All the talk of that difficult 3 x (1200, 400) workout. Looking at their videos, it was run 11 days before Arcadia (3/29), not this past week. Maybe it was too much; I don't know. But a learning experience for them as they adjust what works best for this talented group.
The Young family records are ridiculous. Nico's 8:40.0 now places him 3rd in the family for HS 3200 PRs....Crazy
Yeah, I was a little disappointed right after the race because I was expecting sub 8:30, but now, I can definitely appreciate way more what they did. Leo being sick recently would explain his time, but with how quickly he went out, I wouldn't be surprised if he was feeling fried after 400. He could have just had an off day, and going too fast at the start exacerbated it more than it normally would have. Seems likely since he's in sub-4 shape that today was just a one off bad race.
If you take conversions, the top 7 have PRs of 8:32, 8:33, 8:37, 8:39, 8:52, 9:02, and 9:10. Sure, you can say Brosnan got lucky with the Youngs and Sahlmans, but it really is starting to look like he's doing something super special. How many teams have 2 guys at 8:52/9:02? Clovis has 8:46/8:56, but I don't think anyone else can match that this year.
Also, if you take the school's top times since 2019 (with conversions), the list looks something like 8:32, 8:32, 8:33, 8:37, 8:39, 8:44, 8:52, 9:02, and 9:10. That's actually absurd. The top 5 are the Youngs and Sahlmans, but behind that, you have Aschbrenner at 8:44 in a time trial, Appleford at 8:52, Doshi's 9:02 (sophomore), and Martinez's 9:10 (junior). Kinda hard to say Brosnan just lucked into the talent at NP when times are as deep as that over a span of 3 years.
The NP top 6 now have 3200 PR's of 8:33, 8:35, 8:39, 8:48, 8:52 and 9:02. Unprecedented!
All the talk of that difficult 3 x (1200, 400) workout. Looking at their videos, it was run 11 days before Arcadia (3/29), not this past week. Maybe it was too much; I don't know. But a learning experience for them as they adjust what works best for this talented group.
The Young family records are ridiculous. Nico's 8:40.0 now places him 3rd in the family for HS 3200 PRs....Crazy
Yeah, I was a little disappointed right after the race because I was expecting sub 8:30, but now, I can definitely appreciate way more what they did. Leo being sick recently would explain his time, but with how quickly he went out, I wouldn't be surprised if he was feeling fried after 400. He could have just had an off day, and going too fast at the start exacerbated it more than it normally would have. Seems likely since he's in sub-4 shape that today was just a one off bad race.
If you take conversions, the top 7 have PRs of 8:32, 8:33, 8:37, 8:39, 8:52, 9:02, and 9:10. Sure, you can say Brosnan got lucky with the Youngs and Sahlmans, but it really is starting to look like he's doing something super special. How many teams have 2 guys at 8:52/9:02? Clovis has 8:46/8:56, but I don't think anyone else can match that this year.
Also, if you take the school's top times since 2019 (with conversions), the list looks something like 8:32, 8:32, 8:33, 8:37, 8:39, 8:44, 8:52, 9:02, and 9:10. That's actually absurd. The top 5 are the Youngs and Sahlmans, but behind that, you have Aschbrenner at 8:44 in a time trial, Appleford at 8:52, Doshi's 9:02 (sophomore), and Martinez's 9:10 (junior). Kinda hard to say Brosnan just lucked into the talent at NP when times are as deep as that over a span of 3 years.
The NP top 6 now have 3200 PR's of 8:33, 8:35, 8:39, 8:48, 8:52 and 9:02. Unprecedented!
All the talk of that difficult 3 x (1200, 400) workout. Looking at their videos, it was run 11 days before Arcadia (3/29), not this past week. Maybe it was too much; I don't know. But a learning experience for them as they adjust what works best for this talented group.
The Young family records are ridiculous. Nico's 8:40.0 now places him 3rd in the family for HS 3200 PRs....Crazy
Yeah, I was a little disappointed right after the race because I was expecting sub 8:30, but now, I can definitely appreciate way more what they did. Leo being sick recently would explain his time, but with how quickly he went out, I wouldn't be surprised if he was feeling fried after 400. He could have just had an off day, and going too fast at the start exacerbated it more than it normally would have. Seems likely since he's in sub-4 shape that today was just a one off bad race.
If you take conversions, the top 7 have PRs of 8:32, 8:33, 8:37, 8:39, 8:52, 9:02, and 9:10. Sure, you can say Brosnan got lucky with the Youngs and Sahlmans, but it really is starting to look like he's doing something super special. How many teams have 2 guys at 8:52/9:02? Clovis has 8:46/8:56, but I don't think anyone else can match that this year.
Also, if you take the school's top times since 2019 (with conversions), the list looks something like 8:32, 8:32, 8:33, 8:37, 8:39, 8:44, 8:52, 9:02, and 9:10. That's actually absurd. The top 5 are the Youngs and Sahlmans, but behind that, you have Aschbrenner at 8:44 in a time trial, Appleford at 8:52, Doshi's 9:02 (sophomore), and Martinez's 9:10 (junior). Kinda hard to say Brosnan just lucked into the talent at NP when times are as deep as that over a span of 3 years.
The talent coming up behind these guys seems less compelling. Three of the four legs on their 4 X mile relay at Arcadia were sophs, and they seem to be in the 4:30-4:35 range for 1600. So beyond the Young Bros, A. Sahlman, Doshi, Martinez, Cantu and these sophs Brosnan better hope for a few talented frosh next year. Next year's boys' XC team will be in the national mix but not quite the monster team of this season. The following year Brosnan will probably not have any super runners.
Overall the NP girls probably had an off day except for Sam McDonnell, who finished 3rd in the mile at 4:40.63, behind Engelhardt and Chloe Foerster. After being out a while (injury?) she recently returned with 2:08.33 at APU and now this mile so she should finish the season well.
I noticed the same thing in terms of that first 100m or so being very chaotic for both of the Young brothers, in addition of course to a bunch of the other boys in the field we aren't talking about. Ultimately too many guys on the starting line and that's Rich G's fault.
If C. Sahlman was in a race like the one LV ran 8:29 in, all signs point towards Colin running significantly faster than he did tonight, but not due to the pacing or too many people being on the track as that was never an issue for Colin.
People need to understand that racing your teammates is not the same as racing against guys from other teams. Ultimately this turned into two teammates doing a TT together. It's just not the same, especially when Colin knows he's gonna beat Lex. Put him in a race where he's got real competition and you'll get a different result.
Also, Leo led the pack through in 61.1. Just because Tim said it was a 60.8 while announcing doesn't mean that's what it actually was.
Colin went through at 61.5 first lap then 67.2 second lap which is not atypical at all in a race won in 8:34 that doesn't have a rabbit. Colin also paced that first lap a bit better and looked like a real pro out there being super relaxed in 5th place the majority of the first lap.
Nah, pacing and an overcrowded track made a way bigger difference than "real competition". He still got pushed to the line, but LV's race had perfect pacing (mile in 4:14), and he didn't need to worry about positioning, he just went to the back of the pack and held on as long as he could.
Going through in 61.1 as opposed to 60.8 is hardly a difference tbh, the more important numbers are 100 in 13.x and 200 in well under 30. Anyone who's ever down it knows how big of a mistake it is to go through 100 4 seconds faster than goal pace.
And can you point out to me some typical races that are won in 8:34? Afaik, there's only been 3-4 if you include conversions. What, generously, Kessler, Fernandez, Sahlman, Nelson, and Lindgren if you convert to an outdoor track? I don't think any of those went out in 61/67 or anything close to that.
How was it ever overcrowded from Colin's perspective, though? His brother Aaron pops out in front straight away as Colin follows. There is a bubble around Colin with nobody ever fighting him for position. Overcrowding was truly never a factor for Colin the entire race.
Your splits for Colin are off, as is your math because he was nowhere close to being four seconds faster than goal pace his first 100.
Let me help you all with the math and actual splits and then tell me if you really think pacing was a problem here. Apologies for the formatting of the "spreadsheet" below, but LR is run by absolute dinosaurs ffs.
Aaron Sahlman doesn't seem to handle pressure well. He'll do great at unimportant meets, then relatively underperform when expectations are high. He ran an 8:01 3k indoors, then only ran a 4:11 mile split in the 4xmile record. Outdoors he ran a 4:05 mile with bad pacing, a high 1:48 800, then "only" ran an 8:48 3200 at Arcadia.
Aaron Sahlman doesn't seem to handle pressure well. He'll do great at unimportant meets, then relatively underperform when expectations are high. He ran an 8:01 3k indoors, then only ran a 4:11 mile split in the 4xmile record. Outdoors he ran a 4:05 mile with bad pacing, a high 1:48 800, then "only" ran an 8:48 3200 at Arcadia.
He is training for the 800m , but jumped in the 3200m . Damn good!
The talent coming up behind these guys seems less compelling. Three of the four legs on their 4 X mile relay at Arcadia were sophs, and they seem to be in the 4:30-4:35 range for 1600. So beyond the Young Bros, A. Sahlman, Doshi, Martinez, Cantu and these sophs Brosnan better hope for a few talented frosh next year. Next year's boys' XC team will be in the national mix but not quite the monster team of this season. The following year Brosnan will probably not have any super runners.
Are you serious? That team could be better next year. Possibly a stronger 1-5 next year if improvement happens. It's not like Colin S. was 30s in front of their #2. Or Aaron Sahlman was 30s behind their #3. Doshi could run in the 1440s at Woodward Park next year. Why not? He went into last fall with a 9:27 3200 PR. Same for Hector Martinez. If things stay injury free...they will at least be stronger at #5 man. And I really don't give a damn if transfers do go there. Football players and Hoops players do it to make super teams. And if other coaches don't wanna up there game and post on Letsrun that Brosnan is insane with his workouts or whatever....let him take their kids and make them look like fools.
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